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Ranking the All Time Test teams

capt_Luffy

International Captain
Just a mild curiosity how would the All Time Test Teams fare against each other. I would rank them as:
1. Australia
2. West Indies
3. England
4. South Africa
5. India
6. Pakistan
7. New Zealand
8. Sri Lanka
9. Zimbabwe
10.Bangladesh
11.Afghanistan
12.Ireland
 

Krypto

U19 Vice-Captain
Ok so curious how you doing this are you creating one team for each nation out of their best players ever or are you using a team that played together and was ranked the highest for a period of time , both have some interesting complications .

Edit : Also think this might be in the wrong forum .
 

capt_Luffy

International Captain
Ok so curious how you doing this are you creating one team for each nation out of their best players ever or are you using a team that played together and was ranked the highest for a period of time , both have some interesting complications .

Edit : Also think this might be in the wrong forum .
I was trying like the best team to be possible to put on paper. Actually I was having a discussion with someone on a thread about India vs Pakistan All time teams; so it came to my mind.
Also, thanks for pointing the forum out.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Think Australia, Windies and SA are a solid top 3. Australia has a bit of a gap due to Bradman, Gilly and Warne.

Windies and SA imo are closer than people may think, Windies has the better batting no doubt but (sacrilegious call here) SA has the bowling edge imo, due to comparable pacers and far superior spinners. Tayfield is clearly ahead of Gibbs if both are included. Faulkner is also better (assuming he’s in too) as a spinner than Sobers (we recently learned most of his best bowling was as a pacer). Both teams can have AB and Walcott as keepers too. Fascinating matchup imo.

England has batting comparable with these others but sadly their bowling attack just falls quite short and they (despite having superior batsmen) would be competing with Pak and India for 4th.

SL and New Zealand also an interesting matchup, basically pace vs spin on bowlers - SL has the better batters overall but that gap has shrunk a bit recently with Williamson and Taylor.
 

Krypto

U19 Vice-Captain
Ok so with Tests this becomes convoluted due to the long history of the game as well as the differences in eras . Can you compare someone like J Ferris or IMO one of the best surnames to ever play Frederick Spofforth to a modern great like Glenn McGrath. Even if you go back just one lifetime and take someone like Alan Davidson who last game was in 1963 it is difficult to have this conversation due to our lack of knowledge and first hand experience . None of us would have seen Ferris or Spofforth bowl so we need to go off records and recordings of events . I think you have a interesting topic and one that has had many irritations however for this to be a proper conversation you will need to put a little bit more context or criteria to it .

The forum you used is where this is a constant reminder and we dare go into the frey however looking for something conclusive is difficult . Case and point you have England ranked 3rd . However below team that I'm sure has players very few would know about and on paper would destroy any team however IMO any ranked test team in 2023 would destroy these players so prior to 1955 you will have England Australia and South Africa . Between 1955 and 1990 you have a pre professional boom with almost comparable players to current era past 1990 imo. And this isn't just the England side you can do almost the exact same with Australia and South Africa .

This being said there are many who would put some of these players on a all time list and try and compare , Which is folly IMO however still a lot of fun if your not to serious about it . .

1​
Herbert Sutcliffe4555 Runs @60.73
2​
Jack Hobbs5410 Runs @56.94
3​
Ken Barrington6806 Runs @58.67
4​
Wally Hammond7249 Runs @58.45
5​
Denis Compton5807 Runs @50.06
6​
Alan Knott(W/K)4389 runs @32.75 250 Catches 19 Stumpings
7​
Billy Barnes725 Runs @23.38 51 wickets @15.54
8​
John Briggs815 runs @18.11 118 wickets@17.75
9​
George Lohmann112 wickets @10.75
10​
Sydney Barnes189 wickets @16.43
11​
Bobby Peel101 Wickets @16.98


However after all this is think the best thing to go off is official rankings that has been populating since 1955 and it shows the below countries ranked which reads close to your list and is for exactly that reason to show the best test playing nations historically .


TeamTotal monthsHighest rating
Australia
350143
West Indies
235135
England
106125
India
94130
South Africa
61135
New Zealand
8126
Pakistan
4111
Reference: ICC Historical Rankings
 

capt_Luffy

International Captain
Think Australia, Windies and SA are a solid top 3. Australia has a bit of a gap due to Bradman, Gilly and Warne.

Windies and SA imo are closer than people may think, Windies has the better batting no doubt but (sacrilegious call here) SA has the bowling edge imo, due to comparable pacers and far superior spinners. Tayfield is clearly ahead of Gibbs if both are included. Faulkner is also better (assuming he’s in too) as a spinner than Sobers (we recently learned most of his best bowling was as a pacer). Both teams can have AB and Walcott as keepers too. Fascinating matchup imo.

England has batting comparable with these others but sadly their bowling attack just falls quite short and they (despite having superior batsmen) would be competing with Pak and India for 4th.

SL and New Zealand also an interesting matchup, basically pace vs spin on bowlers - SL has the better batters overall but that gap has shrunk a bit recently with Williamson and Taylor.
Interesting take. I actually think that Windies and Aussies are actually closer than one might think. Australia have the advantage in opening, Gilchrist and spinners in general (not just Warne but O'Reilly, Grimmett, Lyon , Trumble and Benaud as well if required); while, hear me out; windies have a stronger middle order; in the likes of Richards, Lara, Headley, Sobers and Walcott (if he keeps). After Bradman, the first four of them are in consideration in the Greatest batsmen 2nd spot. Pace I also think goes to WI, with Marshall, Ambrose and Holding/Garner/Walsh barely edging out Lillee, Miller, McGrath and/or Lindwall. But yeah, ultimately I think Bradman factor dictates.

On the 3rd team position, I actually do think it's quite close. I think SA are the biggest dark horses, due to having large no of Allrounders and players who doesn't have long test careers (Richards, Procter, Pollock, Rice (if he counts)); but I do think England have better batsman (just slightly) in Hobbs, Hutton, Sutcliffe, Hammond, Barrington, Root, Compton; and equal bowlers in Sydney Barnes, Trueman, Anderson, Broad, Larwood, Bedser, Willis, Botham, Laker, Rhodes, Verity, Underwood to Steyn, Donald, Procter, Pollock, Rice, Van der Bijl, Rabada, Tayfield, Faulkner. Overall, it's really close.

Again, India and Pakistan is very close. It could either way; India has better batsmen and spinners while Pakistan has far superior Pacers.

Also, SL and NZ is especially tricky as Sri Lanka has some ATGs (Murali, Sanga, Jayawardene) and some more greats (Vaas, Aurobindo De Silva, Herath, Jayasuriya); but the team isn't much balanced and rest of the players are quite mediocre given the stage. On the other hand, New Zealand has solid batting (Crowe, Williamson, Turner, Sutcliffe, Ross Taylor, McCullum) a solid pace battery (Hadlee, Bond, Boult, Southee, Wegner), and a good spinner (Vettori). But I think I gave the nod to them for having a bunch of great Allrounders in John Richard Reid, Richard Hadlee, Daniel Vettori and Chris Cairns.
 

capt_Luffy

International Captain
Ok so with Tests this becomes convoluted due to the long history of the game as well as the differences in eras . Can you compare someone like J Ferris or IMO one of the best surnames to ever play Frederick Spofforth to a modern great like Glenn McGrath. Even if you go back just one lifetime and take someone like Alan Davidson who last game was in 1963 it is difficult to have this conversation due to our lack of knowledge and first hand experience . None of us would have seen Ferris or Spofforth bowl so we need to go off records and recordings of events . I think you have a interesting topic and one that has had many irritations however for this to be a proper conversation you will need to put a little bit more context or criteria to it .

The forum you used is where this is a constant reminder and we dare go into the frey however looking for something conclusive is difficult . Case and point you have England ranked 3rd . However below team that I'm sure has players very few would know about and on paper would destroy any team however IMO any ranked test team in 2023 would destroy these players so prior to 1955 you will have England Australia and South Africa . Between 1955 and 1990 you have a pre professional boom with almost comparable players to current era past 1990 imo. And this isn't just the England side you can do almost the exact same with Australia and South Africa .

This being said there are many who would put some of these players on a all time list and try and compare , Which is folly IMO however still a lot of fun if your not to serious about it . .

1​
Herbert Sutcliffe4555 Runs @60.73
2​
Jack Hobbs5410 Runs @56.94
3​
Ken Barrington6806 Runs @58.67
4​
Wally Hammond7249 Runs @58.45
5​
Denis Compton5807 Runs @50.06
6​
Alan Knott(W/K)4389 runs @32.75 250 Catches 19 Stumpings
7​
Billy Barnes725 Runs @23.38 51 wickets @15.54
8​
John Briggs815 runs @18.11 118 wickets@17.75
9​
George Lohmann112 wickets @10.75
10​
Sydney Barnes189 wickets @16.43
11​
Bobby Peel101 Wickets @16.98


However after all this is think the best thing to go off is official rankings that has been populating since 1955 and it shows the below countries ranked which reads close to your list and is for exactly that reason to show the best test playing nations historically .


TeamTotal monthsHighest rating
Australia
350143
West Indies
235135
England
106125
India
94130
South Africa
61135
New Zealand
8126
Pakistan
4111
Reference: ICC Historical Rankings
Yeah, at the end of the day, I know that trying to make an All Time Team is futile; but I think it's still quite fun. Case in point, the team you made will most likely get demolished nowadays, by probably current England nonetheless. I think it mostly comes down to impact, legacy and how good they were back then. Case in point, your English team has 3 spinners and two bowlers who bowled what is still a mystery but according to some it's spin.
Also, the official ranking is kinda on point while being not.....
 

Coronis

International Coach
On the 3rd team position, I actually do think it's quite close. I think SA are the biggest dark horses, due to having large no of Allrounders and players who doesn't have long test careers (Richards, Procter, Pollock, Rice (if he counts)); but I do think England have better batsman (just slightly) in Hobbs, Hutton, Sutcliffe, Hammond, Barrington, Root, Compton; and equal bowlers in Sydney Barnes, Trueman, Anderson, Broad, Larwood, Bedser, Willis, Botham, Laker, Rhodes, Verity, Underwood to Steyn, Donald, Procter, Pollock, Rice, Van der Bijl, Rabada, Tayfield, Faulkner. Overall, it's really close.
Nah whilst England has the superior batting, SA’s bowling is leagues ahead. Going by your own ATXI from the ATG team thread the attacks would be:

SA: Steyn/Donald/Procter/Pollock/Faulkner/Rice/Kallis
ENG: Barnes/Trueman/Anderson/Botham/Rhodes/Hammond

You could make an argument that SA has 6 bowlers there better than Anderson if you wanted - the gap is crazy.

also @Prince EWS perhaps should be in CC idk?
 
Last edited:

Krypto

U19 Vice-Captain
Yeah, at the end of the day, I know that trying to make an All Time Team is futile; but I think it's still quite fun. Case in point, the team you made will most likely get demolished nowadays, by probably current England nonetheless. I think it mostly comes down to impact, legacy and how good they were back then. Case in point, your English team has 3 spinners and two bowlers who bowled what is still a mystery but according to some it's spin.
Also, the official ranking is kinda on point while being not.....
Yea exactly , just a rebuttal on the bowlers , i tried to use at least 3 that opened the bowling initially and then quickly realized all of them have bowled with what would have been the new ball . So i used 3 that was accredited for bowling seam up supposedly . both Barnes(Sydney and Billy) and George Lohmann were all considered seam bowlers .
 

Patience and Accuracy+Gut

State Vice-Captain
Nah whilst England has the superior batting, SA’s bowling is leagues ahead. Going by your own ATXI from the ATG team thread the attacks would be:

SA: Steyn/Donald/Procter/Pollock/Faulkner/Rice/Kallis
ENG: Barnes/Trueman/Anderson/Botham/Rhodes/Hammond

You could make an argument that SA has 6 bowlers there better than Anderson if you wanted - the gap is crazy.

also @Prince EWS perhaps should be in CC idk?
This attack should be as good as any,

Harold Larwood
Jim Laker
Fred Trueman
Sydney Barnes

Hammond ofc the 5th bowler.No Anderson imho. With Syd Barnes being able to bowl hours, no need for Anderson really. Have Barnes and Trueman open the attack with Larwood to replace Trueman and Laker when needed to follow up. Then just rotate the bowlers with Barnes who is ofc the leader.
 
Last edited:

Patience and Accuracy+Gut

State Vice-Captain
Australia’s ATG Team

1st Xi

Trumper
Hayden
Bradman*
Smith
Ponting
Border
Gilchrist+
Lindwall
Lillee
O’Reilly
McGrath

2nd Xi

Simpson*
Morris
Harvey
Chappell
Waugh
McCabe
Miller
Davidson
Tallon+
Warne
Cummins


England’s ATG Team

1st Xi

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Root
Hammond
Hutton*
Barrington
Knott+
Larwood
Laker
Trueman
Barnes

2nd Xi

Boycott
Gooch
Compton
Gower
Pietersen
Leyland
Ames+
Botham
Verity
Snow
Anderson

2nd Xi of England is lot weak.
 

BazBall21

International Captain
SA take it against England for me. Their batters are still superstars in their own right and stand up better to England's top five than England's attack does to South Africa's.
SA also have outstanding batting depth because of their volume of all-rounders. The Barnes factor complicates England's pedigree though.
Also think these all time XI comparisons provoke the imaginary concept of a series between the two. That benefits SA because their three aparthied era legends would obviously be affected heavily if instead it was all about legacies.
 

Patience and Accuracy+Gut

State Vice-Captain
The forum you used is where this is a constant reminder and we dare go into the frey however looking for something conclusive is difficult . Case and point you have England ranked 3rd . However below team that I'm sure has players very few would know about and on paper would destroy any team however IMO any ranked test team in 2023 would destroy these players so prior to 1955 you will have England Australia and South Africa . Between 1955 and 1990 you have a pre professional boom with almost comparable players to current era past 1990 imo. And this isn't just the England side you can do almost the exact same with Australia and South Africa .

This being said there are many who would put some of these players on a all time list and try and compare , Which is folly IMO however still a lot of fun if your not to serious about it . .

1​
Herbert Sutcliffe4555 Runs @60.73
2​
Jack Hobbs5410 Runs @56.94
3​
Ken Barrington6806 Runs @58.67
4​
Wally Hammond7249 Runs @58.45
5​
Denis Compton5807 Runs @50.06
6​
Alan Knott(W/K)4389 runs @32.75 250 Catches 19 Stumpings
7​
Billy Barnes725 Runs @23.38 51 wickets @15.54
8​
John Briggs815 runs @18.11 118 wickets@17.75
9​
George Lohmann112 wickets @10.75
10​
Sydney Barnes189 wickets @16.43
11​
Bobby Peel101 Wickets @16.98
Modern Test teams (England for instance) should win because you haven’t chosen anything close to the strongest team.

Selecting ATG Team from your time frame, I can go-

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton*
Hammond
Compton
Barrington
Knott+
Verity
Laker
Trueman
Barnes

Have current England team transported to 1956 and we should see lots of crying about the pitch and those bats. For a fast bowling pitch just have Larwood and any of Tyson/Snow/Statham/Bedser to replace the spinners depending on where the match is taking place.
 

BazBall21

International Captain
England's batting is better, but SA's batting is still outstanding. The attacks is the difference making point for me. I'd fancy SA in a one off game. Their pace attack is more likely to make inroads.

Trueman Anderson Snow Botham is very good but is no match for Steyn Pollock Donald Proctor. Especially on a flat pitch which is where the distance in batting would naturally become less important too. SA win all four bowling matchups there. More chance of Graeme Pollock (or even a Dudley Nourse) making 150 than Len Hutton in this match.

The thing in England's favour is the Barnes factor. Such an enigma. SA don't want to be chasing many against him. I suspect they wouldn't be though.

England more spin depth if the game is randomly played in Asia, but even then SA have Faulkner, Tayfield and a vastly more proven pace trio in Asia than England's.
 

Coronis

International Coach
This attack should be as good as any,

Harold Larwood
Jim Laker
Fred Trueman
Sydney Barnes

Hammond ofc the 5th bowler.No Anderson imho. With Syd Barnes being able to bowl hours, no need for Anderson really. Have Barnes and Trueman open the attack with Larwood to replace Trueman and Laker when needed to follow up. Then just rotate the bowlers with Barnes who is ofc the leader.
Larwood is massively overrated - he had one great series and outside of that was pretty mediocre - with occasional great bowling innings but unable to keep it up consistently. Laker is definitely an improvement on Rhodes - he did though play a high percentage of home matches and was nowhere near as penetrative overseas.

imo however you make the team England’s attack will be 5th at best - behind Australia, Windies, South Africa and Pakistan.
 

BazBall21

International Captain
Larwood is massively overrated - he had one great series and outside of that was pretty mediocre - with occasional great bowling innings but unable to keep it up consistently. Laker is definitely an improvement on Rhodes - he did though play a high percentage of home matches and was nowhere near as penetrative overseas.

imo however you make the team England’s attack will be 5th at best - behind Australia, Windies, South Africa and Pakistan.
Yeah. England's batting is top 3 but the bowling is 5th.
 

Pothas

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Larwood is massively overrated - he had one great series and outside of that was pretty mediocre - with occasional great bowling innings but unable to keep it up consistently. Laker is definitely an improvement on Rhodes - he did though play a high percentage of home matches and was nowhere near as penetrative overseas.

imo however you make the team England’s attack will be 5th at best - behind Australia, Windies, South Africa and Pakistan.
Any of England's best spinners are all way ahead of Faulkner though (obviously you could have Tayfield.)

It reckon it really comes down to how you rate Barnes.
 

BazBall21

International Captain
Hobbs
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Root
Ames
Botham
Trueman
Snow
Barnes
Anderson

Wanted Les with Trueman at 8 but that's a much of a muchness because of his record against Australia. Sutcliffe is probably better than Root but felt Root is needed for balance. Don't want an even more atrritional top 5.
 

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