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Which Asian all time xi is the strongest?

Which nation has the strongest all time test team?

  • Total voters
    47
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Migara said:
I think you are bringing a straw man argument. The argument was Vaas developed his own way of reversing since Wasim did not give the art. As a result Vaas got reverse swing at 10-15k less than Wasim. Instead you are arguing on the straw man point than Wasim was better than Vaas. Intellectually dishonest if I am to be mild about it. Grow up and bring the steel man argument mate.
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Actually to be fair it wasn't you arguing that. So I apologize for the confusion.

Vaas in his own right was an incredibly crafty customer.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
TheJediBrah said:
IMO Vaas was even better when he bowled mostly cutters later in his career, especially on the wickets he mostly played on

His new-ball swing bowling was decent but mostly feasted on the likes of Bangladesh
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Vaas was great at slow pace cutters. This is probably the best death over ever bowled.

 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Pakistan has a much superior pace line-up (in Akram, Younis, Imran Khan, Nawaz, Fazal Mahmood and Shoaib Akhtar); so in conditions like England or Australia they have the advantage; but India not only have the better spinners (Saqlain Mushtaq and Abdul Qadir are great spinners; but I definitely think Kumble, Ashwin, the quartet, etc are better) and definitely a much stronger batting line-up (Sachin, Gavaskar, Dravid, Kohli, Sehwag, Dhoni, even Kapil Dev and if you count Mankad and Ashwin). So yeah, to rap up, I think if the two teams played 10 tests; 5 in sub continent and 5 outside; then more likely than not India will win 4 and Pakistan 3....... It's close, but India have the slight advantage.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
capt_Luffy said:
Pakistan has a much superior pace line-up (in Akram, Younis, Imran Khan, Nawaz, Fazal Mahmood and Shoaib Akhtar); so in conditions like England or Australia they have the advantage; but India not only have the better spinners (Saqlain Mushtaq and Abdul Qadir are great spinners; but I definitely think Kumble, Ashwin, the quartet, etc are better) and definitely a much stronger batting line-up (Sachin, Gavaskar, Dravid, Kohli, Sehwag, Dhoni, even Kapil Dev and if you count Mankad and Ashwin). So yeah, to rap up, I think if the two teams played 10 tests; 5 in sub continent and 5 outside; then more likely than not India will win 4 and Pakistan 3....... It's close, but India have the slight advantage.
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India only have the advantage in India where pitches break up and spin. In Pakistan they face concrete roads and in SL, Pakistan pacers rock historically.

So if they played 10 tests, it will be Pakistan 5, India 2/3, and 2 draws.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
subshakerz said:
India only have the advantage in India where pitches break up and spin. In Pakistan they face concrete roads and in SL, Pakistan pacers rock historically.

So if they played 10 tests, it will be Pakistan 5, India 2/3, and 2 draws.
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I still kinda disagree, the pacers advantage I don't think is enough to make up for the difference in batting quality. I mean, yeah Akram, Khan, Younis and Nawaz or Mahmood or Akhtar are much superior than Kapil Dev and like Bumrah and/or Shami, Zaheer, Srinath; but so are Sachin, Gavaskar, Dravid, Sehwag, Kohli to Miandad, Hanif, Inzamam, Younis Khan and Zaheer Abbas
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
capt_Luffy said:
I still kinda disagree, the pacers advantage I don't think is enough to make up for the difference in batting quality. I mean, yeah Akram, Khan, Younis and Nawaz or Mahmood or Akhtar are much superior than Kapil Dev and like Bumrah and/or Shami, Zaheer, Srinath; but so are Sachin, Gavaskar, Dravid, Sehwag, Kohli to Miandad, Hanif, Inzamam, Younis Khan and Zaheer Abbas
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Think of a real game. Who is more likely to regularly score 400 regularly, regardless of conditions?

Anwar, Hanif, Younis, Miandad, Inzi against Kapil, Zaheer, Bumrah/Shami, Kumble, Ashwin

Or

Sehwag, Gavaskar, Dravid, Tendulkar, Kohli against Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Saqlain

The former easily. The latter attack is simply too relentless unless the pitch is completely dead or a spinning track in India.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
subshakerz said:
Think of a real game. Who is more likely to regularly score 400 regularly, regardless of conditions?

Anwar, Hanif, Younis, Miandad, Inzi against Kapil, Zaheer, Bumrah/Shami, Kumble, Ashwin

Or

Sehwag, Gavaskar, Dravid, Tendulkar, Kohli against Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Saqlain

The former easily. The latter attack is simply too relentless unless the pitch is completely dead or a spinning track in India.
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I totally get your point; but I still think that if factor in everything; I think Dev=Younis, Ashwin> Mushtaq, Kumble=<Khan, Bumrah=Akhtar. So, that only leaves the huge advantage of having Akram over Zaheer Khan or Mohammad Shami or Bedi/Mankad/Jadeja liked left arm spinner. Realistically, Gavaskar and Tendulkar are among the race for the best batsman of all time after Bradman. They, alongside Dravid and Sehwag are much better than any Pakistani batsman. Miandad, Hanif, Inzamam, Younis Khan, etc are all Greats; but I don't think any of them is better than Kohli also. Then, Dhoni is a factor. If it's Indian conditions, or even a slow pitch is Sri Lanka or Bangladesh, India demolishes, as Bedi and co comes in the equation; if it's in Australia, England or Pakistan; Pakistan have a 60/40 advantage.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
capt_Luffy said:
I totally get your point; but I still think that if factor in everything; I think Dev=Younis, Ashwin> Mushtaq, Kumble=<Khan, Bumrah=Akhtar. So, that only leaves the huge advantage of having Akram over Zaheer Khan or Mohammad Shami or Bedi/Mankad/Jadeja liked left arm spinner. Realistically, Gavaskar and Tendulkar are among the race for the best batsman of all time after Bradman. They, alongside Dravid and Sehwag are much better than any Pakistani batsman. Miandad, Hanif, Inzamam, Younis Khan, etc are all Greats; but I don't think any of them is better than Kohli also. Then, Dhoni is a factor. If it's Indian conditions, or even a slow pitch is Sri Lanka or Bangladesh, India demolishes, as Bedi and co comes in the equation; if it's in Australia, England or Pakistan; Pakistan have a 60/40 advantage.
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Younis and Imran are far superior to Dev and Kumble. Just compare their records pls.

So Pakistan has four worldclass pacers plus Saqlain. No room to breathe.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
subshakerz said:
Younis and Imran are far superior to Dev and Kumble. Just compare their records pls.

So Pakistan has four worldclass pacers plus Saqlain. No room to breathe.
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Kapil Dev basically carried Indian pace bowling in his time, bowling abnormally long spells for a pacer, and to boot that, Indian pitches weren't much suited for his bowling style; that's the reason why his average is much higher than the likes of Waqar Younis. Stats don't always shows the full picture; or else Victor Trumper wouldn't be considered one of the finest batsmen. For Kumble, I kinda disagree; he's probably the finest spinner after Warne and Murli, alongside the likes of O'Reilly and Grimmett. Khan was probably better than him; but again not by much. By stats alone you can't judge; like Warne avg 25.4 while Frank Tyson was of 18.6; that would mean they aren't even comparable. Pakistan has 4 World class pacers and a great spinner; but India also has two World Class pacers (in Kapil Dev and Bumrah, though again, in this department Pakistan is just superior) and two World Class Spinners; with a capable 5th bowler.
And most of all; the Indian batting is just way ahead of Pakistan. They have 5 ATGs; while Pakistan has only 1 or atmost 2.
 
P

Patience and Accuracy+Gut

State Vice-Captain
capt_Luffy said:
Kapil Dev basically carried Indian pace bowling in his time, bowling abnormally long spells for a pacer, and to boot that, Indian pitches weren't much suited for his bowling style; that's the reason why his average is much higher than the likes of Waqar Younis. Stats don't always shows the full picture; or else Victor Trumper wouldn't be considered one of the finest batsmen. For Kumble, I kinda disagree; he's probably the finest spinner after Warne and Murli, alongside the likes of O'Reilly and Grimmett. Khan was probably better than him; but again not by much. By stats alone you can't judge; like Warne avg 25.4 while Frank Tyson was of 18.6; that would mean they aren't even comparable. Pakistan has 4 World class pacers and a great spinner; but India also has two World Class pacers (in Kapil Dev and Bumrah, though again, in this department Pakistan is just superior) and two World Class Spinners; with a capable 5th bowler.
And most of all; the Indian batting is just way ahead of Pakistan. They have 5 ATGs; while Pakistan has only 1 or atmost 2.
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Waqar >> Dev and Imran >> Kumble.

Peak Waqar and Peak Imran are possibly the top 2 best bowler to ever breath bar none.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Patience and Accuracy+Gut said:
Waqar >> Dev and Imran >> Kumble.

Peak Waqar and Peak Imran are possibly the top 2 best bowler to ever breath bar none.
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We aren't considering just the peaks; but still really? Better than the likes of Barnes, Warne, Murali, Marshall, Lillee, Hadlee, Steyn, Ambrose??..... I would disagree on both actually. I think Waqar, Dev and Imran were of the same level (spread around whole career, not just peaks); and Kumble was definitely not behind them.
 
TheJediBrah

TheJediBrah

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I mean if you confirm with 100% certainty that you will get Waqar bowling in his absolute peak form, perfect conditions, with a ball that is swinging a mile for the whole game then I can see why you might want to pick him ahead of an other bowlers for a match.

But that's a kind of dumb way to look at it because it's not how life works. You go with the percentages and McGrath, Marshall or Hadlee will get you better results in the vast majority of cases over a period of time.
 
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