McGrath/Tendulkar or Imran/Kallis

[Fuller Pilch]

Top 5 bat & top 3 seamer

vs
Top 15-20 bat who is a good 5th bowler (could be an amazing 6th in this team and allow for 2 or 3 spinners) and excellent slipper
&
top 10 seamer with reverse swing who is a v good 7 and fantastic 8 as well as an astute and inspiring captain.

Give me the allrounders please.

 

[ataraxia]

Give your own rebuttal.

Put Kallis into a weak team. You replace a 28 average bat with a 52 average bat and a frontline bowler.
Put Tendulkar into a weak team. You replace a 28 average bat with a 57 average bat.

Put Kallis into a strong team. You replace a 38 average bat with a 52 average bat and a half-time bowler.
Put Tendulkar into a strong team. You replace a 38 average bat with a 57 average bat.

Seems pretty clear that the difference in favour of Kallis for the weak team is greater than the difference in favour of Kallis (or some would say not) for the strong team.

 

[TheJediBrah]

The Imran/Kallis crowd are looking at theoretical cumulative averages and concluding they come out on top

Also there is the highly erroneous assumption that I think a lot of people are coming to based on career averages, that Kallis & Sachin are approxmately equal in batting, and that McGrath & Imran are in bowling.

see below:

Put Kallis into a weak team. You replace a 28 average bat with a 52 average bat and a frontline bowler.
Put Tendulkar into a weak team. You replace a 28 average bat with a 57 average bat.

Put Kallis into a strong team. You replace a 38 average bat with a 52 average bat and a half-time bowler.
Put Tendulkar into a strong team. You replace a 38 average bat with a 57 average bat.

Seems pretty clear that the difference in favour of Kallis for the weak team is greater than the difference in favour of Kallis (or some would say not) for the strong team.

well demonstrated

 

[ataraxia]

see below:

well demonstrated

Ok, that completely invalidates my argument. Hang on, I guess that means your 17:28 post is again the most incorrect opinion known to man. Huh. Funny how these things change.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Ok, that completely invalidates my argument.

Kind of does. Funny how I predicted exactly your reasoning before you even made it though, you have to admit.

Hang on, I guess that means your 17:28 post is again the most incorrect opinion known to man. Huh. Funny how these things change.

No u

 

[subshakerz]

Put Kallis into a weak team. You replace a 28 average bat with a 52 average bat and a frontline bowler.
Put Tendulkar into a weak team. You replace a 28 average bat with a 57 average bat.

Put Kallis into a strong team. You replace a 38 average bat with a 52 average bat and a half-time bowler.
Put Tendulkar into a strong team. You replace a 38 average bat with a 57 average bat.

Seems pretty clear that the difference in favour of Kallis for the weak team is greater than the difference in favour of Kallis (or some would say not) for the strong team.

You assume that Kallis in a weak team can take on a frontline bowler workload without seriously affecting his batting. Why?

 

[ma1978]

If trades were a thing in cricket

I think at no point (other than the two year decline) would India have traded Tendulkar for Kallis; or Australia, Ponting for Kallis

and certainly at no point would Australia have traded Mcgrath for Imran

Inner circle ATG specialists are very rare and have value beyond what can appear in hindsight as a superficial difference in average

 

[Adorable Asshole]

If trades were a thing in cricket

I think at no point (other than the two year decline) would India have traded Tendulkar for Kallis; or Australia, Ponting for Kallis

and certainly at no point would Australia have traded Mcgrath for Imran

Inner circle ATG specialists are very rare and have value beyond what can appear in hindsight as a superficial difference in average

Lol. Australia would have easily traded Ponting for Kallis. He would have finally won them a series in India

 

[TheJediBrah]

Lol. Australia would have easily traded Ponting for Kallis. He would have finally won them a series in India

Could not be more wrong in every way

 

[ma1978]

Lol. Australia would have easily traded Ponting for Kallis. He would have finally won them a series in India

when did you start following cricket? That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read on these forums, andve read a lot

 

[ataraxia]

You assume that Kallis in a weak team can take on a frontline bowler workload without seriously affecting his batting. Why?

A fair point as to my example, but with regard to the general principle of all-rounders in weak teams: normally yer above average all-rounder (who aren't quite as good as Kallis) have not almost maxxed out their workload, and they can take up the slack.

Kind of does. Funny how I predicted exactly your reasoning before you even made it though, you have to admit.

You're pointing out what I did, not explaining why it's incorrect.

And it is very interesting because no it isn't my reasoning for this question, it's my reasoning for a different question, and no it's not cumulative averages, because it's not rating Gavaskar as great thanks to his bowling average of 206, and I'm only comparing averages for one discipline, not across disciplines even excusing your poor choice of words, which I really shouldn't do because that's your fault, and actually no in the first place I never added cumulative averages, I went "how can one possibly believe that McGrath is a more valuable cricketer than Imran lmao" instead, which in actual fact seems to be your argument as well but extraordinarily and inexplicably the other way round.

 

[ataraxia]

If trades were a thing in cricket

I think at no point (other than the two year decline) would India have traded Tendulkar for Kallis; or Australia, Ponting for Kallis

and certainly at no point would Australia have traded Mcgrath for Imran

Inner circle ATG specialists are very rare and have value beyond what can appear in hindsight as a superficial difference in average

Somehow I think Australia might just have been better off with Kallis and Imran to Ponting and McGrath. You have to remember that Imran is at worst an average bat for a good team.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Somehow I think Australia might just have been better off with Kallis and Imran to Ponting and McGrath. You have to remember that Imran is at worst an average bat for a good team.

Rubbish. They would have won less games and lost more.

 

[ataraxia]

Rubbish. They would have won less games and lost more.

Better batting and better bowling. What's not to like?

 

[subshakerz]

If trades were a thing in cricket

I think at no point (other than the two year decline) would India have traded Tendulkar for Kallis; or Australia, Ponting for Kallis

and certainly at no point would Australia have traded Mcgrath for Imran

Inner circle ATG specialists are very rare and have value beyond what can appear in hindsight as a superficial difference in average

In the 2000s when India had a strong batting lineup, they would have traded easily Tendulkar for Kallis, because they would need his bowling especially on these flatter pitches when your four bowlers get tired.

As for Imran vs McGrath, that is more interesting. The idea of dropping McGrath would be unthinkable but Imran was also a champion bowler. I just think because of Gilly in the late order anyways and because McGrath was more suited to Aussie pitches, he would remain but Imran would replace McGrath if touring the SC and WI.

Australia would never drop Ponting for Kallis though except late career. Ponting was the most feared bat in the world and they didn't need Kallis' extra bowling that much.

 

[subshakerz]

A fair point as to my example, but with regard to the general principle of all-rounders in weak teams: normally yer above average all-rounder (who aren't quite as good as Kallis) have not almost maxxed out their workload, and they can take up the slack.

Kallis bowled on average 20 overs a game so if he is playing in a weaker team assume he bowls around that with his batting average or else he becomes a different player.

 

[ankitj]

This is the thread that will be the end of CW community

 

[ma1978]

In the 2000s when India had a strong batting lineup, they would have traded easily Tendulkar for Kallis, because they would need his bowling especially on these flatter pitches when your four bowlers get tired.

As for Imran vs McGrath, that is more interesting. The idea of dropping McGrath would be unthinkable but Imran was also a champion bowler. I just think because of Gilly in the late order anyways and because McGrath was more suited to Aussie pitches, he would remain but Imran would replace McGrath if touring the SC and WI.

Australia would never drop Ponting for Kallis though except late career. Ponting was the most feared bat in the world and they didn't need Kallis' extra bowling that much.

Kallis is essentially Rahul Dravid merged with RP Singh and no way India trades Tendulkar for that

Mcgrath is meaningfully ahead of Imran as a bowler

 

[BazBall21]

Imran factor is too much.

 

[subshakerz]

Kallis is essentially Rahul Dravid merged with RP Singh and no way India trades Tendulkar for that

Tendulkar in the 2000s wasn't notably ahead of Dravid and Sehwag. Kallis may be similar to Dravid but for that bowling lineup it would be very helpful.