The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[honestbharani]

3

 

[kyear2]

If you've got Bradman in their than imran/miller make more sense than Faulkner or a sobers/Kallis type allrounder, IMO. Bradman means you've got a guy who's gonna perform aswell as the absolute best long term peaks other batsman perform at + an extra 25 runs. That makes up for the lack of batting miller brings, especially if you also have gilly at 7. A 5th bowler of their quality is pure hax, and leaves you better off if theirs a bowling injury.

Let's just go with the possibility that Bradman fails, then you're a batsman short. Averaging 40 is a bit low to bat 6th in this lineup.

 

[kyear2]

If you forced me to pick Kallis in an ATG side I would play him as opener tbh. There are too many better middle-order bats that he'd be keeping out. But I know people hate that. I might not even pick any openers

Kallis
Lara
Bradman
Sachin
Smith
Viv
Gilchrist

This raises the question as to if we see opening as a specific specialist skill though?
Sobers has opened, Viv has opened, Lara, Headley at various times in their careers were defacto openers, and that's just the West Indies.
I will admit that it is a harder position, but is it the specialist position that some others are?

 

[Nintendo]

This raises the question as to if we see opening as a specific specialist skill though?
Sobers has opened, Viv has opened, Lara, Headley at various times in their careers were defacto openers, and that's just the West Indies.
I will admit that it is a harder position, but is it the specialist position that some others are?

There's an average of something like ~60 balls between dismissals in tests. Having to face the new rock vs the opening bowlers is a completely different ballgame to walking out in the 10th over at 3 vs a slightly older ball and either the change bowler, a tired opening pacer, or a spinner (in SENA). Not to mention batting 4, 5, 6, etc. You can probably make cases that certain players who batted lower would handle it better than other guys, but I personally think it's a specialist skill.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It's a specialist skill, but you won't convince me that Bradman, or even lesser players like Smith, Sachin & Lara wouldn't do at least as good a job as any specialist opener

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Let's just go with the possibility that Bradman fails, then you're a batsman short. Averaging 40 is a bit low to bat 6th in this lineup.

Bat Gilchrist at 6 then.

 

[kyear2]

Bat Gilchrist at 6 then.

The effectiveness and brilliance of Gilly is that he's at 7

 

[Fuller Pilch]

It's a specialist skill, but you won't convince me that Bradman, or even lesser players like Smith, Sachin & Lara wouldn't do at least as good a job as any specialist opener

Viv as an opener (4 times in Australia) vs peak Thommo & Lillee:

30 off 38, 101 off 136, 50 off 54, 98 off 103

 

[TheJediBrah]

Batting positions obviously matter, but it's importance is massively overrated by a lot of people

 

[trundler]

I like Viv, Ponting, Dravid and Kallis opening but I really don't like Dravid or Kallis down at 6. #5s opening would suck too.

 

[Prince EWS]

I like Viv, Ponting, Dravid and Kallis opening but I really don't like Dravid or Kallis down at 6. #5s opening would suck too.

Jadeja IMO.

 

[ataraxia]

I like Viv, Ponting, Dravid and Kallis opening but I really don't like Dravid or Kallis down at 6. #5s opening would suck too.

re: #6, there is the second new ball aspect which I think often gets ignored. I'd have Dravid as a floating batter: bat #3 if an early wicket falls; if not, come in for the second new ball.

 

[Prince EWS]

re: #6, there is the second new ball aspect which I think often gets ignored. I'd have Dravid as a floating batter: bat #3 if an early wicket falls; if not, come in for the second new ball.

@Athlai for the third new ball.

 

[_00_deathscar]

What would guys consider to be Jacques Kallis's best batting position in an ATGish team (one with middle order bats of roughly similar quality to him), in which he is expected to bowl as a meaningful 5th bowler? Does his bowling load at all effect your willingness to play him at his preferred 4 (or possibly 3) position.

I remember @bagapath put me over the coals for playing Sanga at his preffered 3, because he happened to also be keeping wicket, and on reflection I actually agree with his reasoning, as WK is a high leverage field position, which will have some non 0 impact on batting output, and you'd want other similar quality bats to take the greater pressure and responsibility up the order, pushing Sanga down to 7 or 6.

With Sobers it's an easy choice, because he was basically great anywhere from 3-6 (actually even down to 7, but I'd never play him that low, even 6 seems like a bit of wasting how dominant of a force he could be with the bat).

It's also too bad I couldn't filter out Kallis's (or Sobers') batting performance by how much they bowled. Is there a case to drop Kallis to an "out of position" batting slot, just because you also intend to use him as a bowler?

Sample batting lineup is this one I drafted. How would you reorder this middle order, if at all?

03. Everton Weekes
04. Jacques Kallis (3-5)
05. Javed Miandad *
06. Joe Root
07. Kumar Sangakkara +

This is dumb even for you…

 

[shortpitched713]

This is dumb even for you…

What about it is dumb? It's a draft team. You have to put draft teams in some kind of order, lol.

Edit: On further review,seems like this dude just doesn't know what a draft is. Sad for him...

 

[shortpitched713]

No, I'm arguably Weekes' second biggest fan on the forum. I'm just salivating at the thought of the weary bowlers celebrating the 5th wicket when Sir Everton strolls out.

Glad to see another Everton Enjoyer. I love how he eschewed the trend of the mid 20th century of bunting, nudging, and nurdling one's way to big scores. I shudder to think what he'd do with the sweet spots of modern bats, along with Bradman and Sobers... Hmm, interesting that makes up 3 of my top 5 batsmen all time...

I just remembered the other reason I put Weekes at 3 instead of Kallis, is that my openers were Lawry and Hayden. I just don't want to start off a lot of 1st innings with Lawry/Kalis on either ends, if Hayden goes down. Seems excesively defensive of a pairing to start a match.

 

[kyear2]

If we had access to the time machine and had a match to save the world vs the guys from Proxima B. As a selector would you really restrict yourself to keeping players in positions they batted? Hell, might go with Richards boys, or Barry and Sir Garry.

Barry Richards (Hutton)
Sunil Gavaskar
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Viv Richards
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist (Knott)
Malcom Marshall
Shane Warne
Dale Steyn (Imran)
Glenn McGrarh

Add Lara and or Smith and that's my squad.

I do tend to look way too deep into this ****, but even looking at Sunny, most of his hundreds against us for example, even in the WI were on the slower pitches of Georgetown and Port of Spain. In the non WSC days I can only find one 100 vs Australia on a lively pitch and even that was a painfully slow innings in a high scoring draw.

 

[_00_deathscar]

If we had access to the time machine and had a match to save the world vs the guys from Proxima B. As a selector would you really restrict yourself to keeping players in positions they batted? Hell, might go with Richards boys, or Barry and Sir Garry.

Barry Richards (Hutton)
Sunil Gavaskar
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Viv Richards
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist (Knott)
Malcom Marshall
Shane Warne
Dale Steyn (Imran)
Glenn McGrarh

Add Lara and or Smith and that's my squad.

I do tend to look way too deep into this ****, but even looking at Sunny, most of his hundreds against us for example, even in the WI were on the slower pitches of Georgetown and Port of Spain. In the non WSC days I can only find one 100 vs Australia on a lively pitch and even that was a painfully slow innings in a high scoring draw.

Let's say a 5 test series, Mortal Kombat style do or die. I go with:

Sunil Gavaskar
Jack Hobbs
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Steve Smith
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Imran Khan (c)
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Glenn McGrath

Rest of the squad to make up 18:
Hutton
Lara
Viv Richards
Pant - bit of an odd choice given where his career is, but hey he's going to go absolutely mental at some point so...yea.
Murali
Steyn
Hadlee

 

[kyear2]

Let's say a 5 test series, Mortal Kombat style do or die. I go with:

Sunil Gavaskar
Jack Hobbs
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Steve Smith
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Imran Khan (c)
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Glenn McGrath

Rest of the squad to make up 18:
Hutton
Lara
Viv Richards
Pant - bit of an odd choice given where his career is, but hey he's going to go absolutely mental at some point so...yea.
Murali
Steyn
Hadlee

Pant aside, besides Pews and Coronis, don't think most would have any issue with this squad.

 

[shortpitched713]

My choice would be Miller but there's the whole thing with his Test batting average being a lot lower than people think it should be

Having basically a close to ATG-level fast bowler to bowl short bursts as 5th bowler is OP and I would hope that in an ATG "play for the world" scenario his batting would step up.

If it's for "the world", all you'd need to do is play him this clip, and after seeing it he'd have all the motivation he needs: