The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Red]

Give it a rest

 

[shortpitched713]

What would guys consider to be Jacques Kallis's best batting position in an ATGish team (one with middle order bats of roughly similar quality to him), in which he is expected to bowl as a meaningful 5th bowler? Does his bowling load at all effect your willingness to play him at his preferred 4 (or possibly 3) position.

I remember @bagapath put me over the coals for playing Sanga at his preffered 3, because he happened to also be keeping wicket, and on reflection I actually agree with his reasoning, as WK is a high leverage field position, which will have some non 0 impact on batting output, and you'd want other similar quality bats to take the greater pressure and responsibility up the order, pushing Sanga down to 7 or 6.

With Sobers it's an easy choice, because he was basically great anywhere from 3-6 (actually even down to 7, but I'd never play him that low, even 6 seems like a bit of wasting how dominant of a force he could be with the bat).

It's also too bad I couldn't filter out Kallis's (or Sobers') batting performance by how much they bowled. Is there a case to drop Kallis to an "out of position" batting slot, just because you also intend to use him as a bowler?

Sample batting lineup is this one I drafted. How would you reorder this middle order, if at all?

03. Everton Weekes
04. Jacques Kallis (3-5)
05. Javed Miandad *
06. Joe Root
07. Kumar Sangakkara +

 

[ataraxia]

What would guys consider to be Jacques Kallis's best batting position in an ATGish team (one with middle order bats of roughly similar quality to him), in which he is expected to bowl as a meaningful 5th bowler? Does his bowling load at all effect your willingness to play him at his preferred 4 (or possibly 3) position.

I remember @bagapath put me over the coals for playing Sanga at his preffered 3, because he happened to bowl, and on reflection I actually agree with his reasoning, as WK is a high leverage field position, which will have some non 0 impact on batting output, and you'd want other similar quality bats to take the greater pressure and responsibility up the order, pushing Sanga down to 7 or 6.

With Sobers it's an easy choice, because he was basically great anywhere from 3-6 (actually even down to 7, but I'd never play him that low, even 6 seems like a bit of wasting how dominant of a force he could be with the bat).

It's also too bad I couldn't filter out Kallis's (or Sobers') batting performance by how much they bowled. Is there a case to drop Kallis to an "out of position" batting slot, just because you also intend to use him as a bowler?

Sample batting lineup is this one I drafted. How would you reorder this middle order, if at all?

03. Everton Weekes
04. Jacques Kallis (3-5)
05. Javed Miandad *
06. Joe Root
07. Kumar Sangakkara +

Kallis
Miandad
Root
Sangakkara +
Weekes

 

[shortpitched713]

Kallis
Miandad
Root
Sangakkara +
Weekes

Well here, it's clear that you just don't rate Weekes, which is fine. His best batting position as a specialist bat, was 3 though, so given you've just moved everyone else up a slot, I'm taking your argument is for don't drop Kallis down the order due to bowling workload. Thank you.

 

[ataraxia]

Well here, it's clear that you just don't rate Weekes, which is fine. His best batting position as a specialist bat, was 3 though, so given you've just moved everyone else up a slot, I'm taking your argument t is don't drop Kallis down the order due to bowling workload. Thank you.

No, I'm arguably Weekes' second biggest fan on the forum. I'm just salivating at the thought of the weary bowlers celebrating the 5th wicket when Sir Everton strolls out.

As to the bolded – what? He played 9 innings at #3, and averaged less there than he did at #4.

 

[Prince EWS]

What would guys consider to be Jacques Kallis's best batting position in an ATGish team (one with middle order bats of roughly similar quality to him), in which he is expected to bowl as a meaningful 5th bowler? Does his bowling load at all effect your willingness to play him at his preferred 4 (or possibly 3) position.

I remember @bagapath put me over the coals for playing Sanga at his preffered 3, because he happened to also be keeping wicket, and on reflection I actually agree with his reasoning, as WK is a high leverage field position, which will have some non 0 impact on batting output, and you'd want other similar quality bats to take the greater pressure and responsibility up the order, pushing Sanga down to 7 or 6.

With Sobers it's an easy choice, because he was basically great anywhere from 3-6 (actually even down to 7, but I'd never play him that low, even 6 seems like a bit of wasting how dominant of a force he could be with the bat).

It's also too bad I couldn't filter out Kallis's (or Sobers') batting performance by how much they bowled. Is there a case to drop Kallis to an "out of position" batting slot, just because you also intend to use him as a bowler?

Sample batting lineup is this one I drafted. How would you reorder this middle order, if at all?

03. Everton Weekes
04. Jacques Kallis (3-5)
05. Javed Miandad *
06. Joe Root
07. Kumar Sangakkara +

I think if you want Kallis to bowl a fair bit his best spot is probably 5. Doesn't bat well enough with the tail to be as useful lower than that, and batting in the top four while also being required to be a frontline seamer or a wicket keeper just seems... unnecessary... to me in team that can choose from everyone in history.

I'd probably move Root up to 4 and Kallis/Miandad down one each in that lineup.

More realistically I'd probably bump Weekes to 7 because I don't rate him as highly as you do, but it does defeat the spirit in which you're asking the question.

 

[kyear2]

What would guys consider to be Jacques Kallis's best batting position in an ATGish team (one with middle order bats of roughly similar quality to him), in which he is expected to bowl as a meaningful 5th bowler? Does his bowling load at all effect your willingness to play him at his preferred 4 (or possibly 3) position.

I remember @bagapath put me over the coals for playing Sanga at his preffered 3, because he happened to also be keeping wicket, and on reflection I actually agree with his reasoning, as WK is a high leverage field position, which will have some non 0 impact on batting output, and you'd want other similar quality bats to take the greater pressure and responsibility up the order, pushing Sanga down to 7 or 6.

With Sobers it's an easy choice, because he was basically great anywhere from 3-6 (actually even down to 7, but I'd never play him that low, even 6 seems like a bit of wasting how dominant of a force he could be with the bat).

It's also too bad I couldn't filter out Kallis's (or Sobers') batting performance by how much they bowled. Is there a case to drop Kallis to an "out of position" batting slot, just because you also intend to use him as a bowler?

Sample batting lineup is this one I drafted. How would you reorder this middle order, if at all?

03. Everton Weekes
04. Jacques Kallis (3-5)
05. Javed Miandad *
06. Joe Root
07. Kumar Sangakkara +

I wouldn't bat Kallis any higher than 5, preferably 6 to complement Gilly coming in next.
I also believe Sobers is wasted at 6, really think him coming after Bradman is carnage incarnate, but any ATG batting side is so stacked that even making the team is hard enough far less ideal batting positions.

 

[TheJediBrah]

In an actual ATG World XI there is no place for Kallis

but in an XI of players at a similar batting to him he has to bat either 3 or 4. Might even be best thing for the team for him to open tbh but I know people get mad when you put players in positions they never actually played in

 

[kyear2]

I

In an actual ATG World XI there is no place for Kallis

but in an XI of players at a similar batting to him he has to bat either 3 or 4. Might even be best thing for the team for him to open tbh but I know people get mad when you put players in positions they never actually played in

In a world with no Sobers, Kallis (or Hammond) is a lock for the all rounders spot. Or even if Sobers plays as a batsman alone

 

[shortpitched713]

No, I'm arguably Weekes' second biggest fan on the forum. I'm just salivating at the thought of the weary bowlers celebrating the 5th wicket when Sir Everton strolls out.

As to the bolded – what? He played 9 innings at #3, and averaged less there than he did at #4.

Sorry, must have misremembered his record.

I do know him and Kallis did do better up the order than the rest of the lineup (barring Sanga). Hence the positions I gave them.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I
In a world with no Sobers, Kallis (or Hammond) is a lock for the all rounders spot. Or even if Sobers plays as a batsman alone

Potentially. Tbh even with no Sobers I'm not sold. You'd get more value out of a more aggressive AR with slightly better bowling

 

[kyear2]

Potentially. Tbh even with no Sobers I'm not sold. You'd get more value out of a more aggressive AR with slightly better bowling

Like whom?

 

[shortpitched713]

So the suggestions I've got are placing Kallis...

everywhere from 1(?) to 6. Guess there isn't much of a consensus on this.

 

[Prince EWS]

Potentially. Tbh even with no Sobers I'm not sold. You'd get more value out of a more aggressive AR with slightly better bowling

I'd be torn between Kallis, Faulkner and Miller if Sobers didn't exist. Kallis was a really gun cricketer but he has issues fitting into an imaginery AT World XI because he's not good enough to displace the 3/4 you've already picked (especially if he's going to bowl a fair bit) and less useful lower than that.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I'd be torn between Kallis, Faulkner and Miller if Sobers didn't exist. Kallis was a really gun cricketer but he has issues fitting into an imaginery AT World XI because he's not good enough to displace the 3/4 you've already picked (especially if he's going to bowl a fair bit) and less useful lower than that.

My choice would be Miller but there's the whole thing with his Test batting average being a lot lower than people think it should be

Having basically a close to ATG-level fast bowler to bowl short bursts as 5th bowler is OP and I would hope that in an ATG "play for the world" scenario his batting would step up.

 

[Prince EWS]

My choice would be Miller but there's the whole thing with his Test batting average being a lot lower than people think it should be

Having basically a close to ATG-level fast bowler to bowl short bursts as 5th bowler is OP and I would hope that in an ATG "play for the world" scenario his batting would step up.

I think it helps if the 7-8 are Gilchrist-Imran too. Not exactly your regular 7-8 combo.

 

[Nintendo]

My choice would be Miller but there's the whole thing with his Test batting average being a lot lower than people think it should be

Having basically a close to ATG-level fast bowler to bowl short bursts as 5th bowler is OP and I would hope that in an ATG "play for the world" scenario his batting would step up.

If you've got Bradman in their than imran/miller make more sense than Faulkner or a sobers/Kallis type allrounder, IMO. Bradman means you've got a guy who's gonna perform aswell as the absolute best long term peaks other batsman perform at + an extra 25 runs. That makes up for the lack of batting miller brings, especially if you also have gilly at 7. A 5th bowler of their quality is pure hax, and leaves you better off if theirs a bowling injury.

 

[TheJediBrah]

The more I think about it the more that makes sense. If you're 4/300 and you've still got Gilly and Imran at 7 and 8, you don't want Kallis at 6 sucking the momentum out of the innings. You'd probably end up moving Gilly up a spot after a good start anyway and Kallis would slide down the order unless you have a really bad start and are 4/80 or something

 

[ataraxia]

The more I think about it the more that makes sense. If you're 4/300 and you've still got Gilly and Imran at 7 and 8, you don't want Kallis at 6 sucking the momentum out of the innings. You'd probably end up moving Gilly up a spot after a good start anyway and Kallis would slide down the order unless you have a really bad start and are 4/80 or something

Bat Kallis 5 and Viv 6?

 

[TheJediBrah]

If you forced me to pick Kallis in an ATG side I would play him as opener tbh. There are too many better middle-order bats that he'd be keeping out. But I know people hate that. I might not even pick any openers

Kallis
Lara
Bradman
Sachin
Smith
Viv
Gilchrist