Are modern greats simply better?

[_00_deathscar]

Comparing players from one era to another is a fruitless and pointless exercise for mine. A much better test for measuring a player's quality and lasting impact is not some meaningless speculative analysis re: whether they are/were better than a player from another era, but to consider how much better they were than their peers at the time they were playing.

The thing with that though (and while he does get some props for it), is that even in a modern era you can end up with stuff like Steyn vs the rest.
Steyn is considered an ATG cos he was one, not cos he was simply that much better than his peers (who weren’t very good).

 

[trundler]

Yeah, assuming that the average quality of players remains constant is spherical cows in a vacuum territory but it's the only way to make any sort of cross era comparisons.

 

[sledger]

The thing with that though (and while he does get some props for it), is that even in a modern era you can end up with stuff like Steyn vs the rest.
Steyn is considered an ATG cos he was one, not cos he was simply that much better than his peers (who weren’t very good).

Yes, but given the inconvenience of not having a time machine, comparison with his peers is literally the only useful mode of comparative analysis we have without entering the domain of meaningless speculation.

This isn't to say one can't argue that Steyn is objectively an ATG of course. He may well be. I don't really have a strong view on that one way or another. But to try and arrive at that conclusion by way of a comparative analysis with players from previous eras who he never played with or against in settings and conditions he never experienced is a nonsense methodology imo.

 

[Owzat]

Always adjust for era. Full stop.

precisely

some chuck toys out of prams when people talk "Premier League" (era) stats, point is they are very different eras, many many subs, squads of 25, lots of games in Europe, faster pace of game. Sure you can compare league title counts etc and compare, BUT comparing eg Best to Messi and suggesting Messi was way better cos..... is daft. Same for cricket, like suggesting Crawley > Bradman due to superior SR or "bazballs" or summat

 

[Owzat]

Yeah, assuming that the average quality of players remains constant is spherical cows in a vacuum territory but it's the only way to make any sort of cross era comparisons.

you can compare in-era to get a tangible measure and then compare eg how far ahead of his peers, or not, Boycott was and then do likewise for say Cook or Strauss. Will always be the pitch factor, and issues re fitness, but people don't seem to give twose hits about such issues when doing their all-time XI which in ODI terms in particular will be all about the modern players and SRs

 

[subshakerz]

Then clearly these players must be chastised for only beating the opposition put in front of them at the time, instead of beating other players from decades in the future who were yet to be born.

We aren't chastizing those past players, but simply saying that players in the modern era were better tested in a more professional setup and therefore we can have more confidence in their greatness.

 

[sledger]

We aren't chastizing those past players, but simply saying that players in the modern era were better tested in a more professional setup and therefore we can have more confidence in their greatness.

This is just another way of saying you are holding players of the past to (what would have been to them) an entirely hypothetical standard that they literally never had any chance of meeting.

 

[subshakerz]

I am interested how all of those players involved in Packer comment how it changed their approach to cricket. The question I have is how did it change? How were cricketers playing at the beginning of the 70s in a way different from the end?

 

[subshakerz]

This is just another way of saying you are holding players of the past to (what would have been to them) an entirely hypothetical standard that they literally never had any chance of meeting.

Similar to preferring players who had the advantage of playing in certain countries and being better tested over those who didn't have the opportunity to tour

 

[sledger]

Similar to preferring players who had the advantage of playing in certain countries and being better tested over those who didn't have the opportunity to tour

Well, it's not really, but yeah ok.

 

[Socerer 01]

precisely

some chuck toys out of prams when people talk "Premier League" (era) stats, point is they are very different eras, many many subs, squads of 25, lots of games in Europe, faster pace of game. Sure you can compare league title counts etc and compare, BUT comparing eg Best to Messi and suggesting Messi was way better cos..... is daft. Same for cricket, like suggesting Crawley > Bradman due to superior SR or "bazballs" or summat

except Messi is you know way better

 

[Coronis]

except Messi is you know way better

Who cares, Pele is better than both.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Don’t know anything about Soccer really. But modern fans talking nonsense of course happens in all sport. There were lots of talks about Lebron being the greatest athlete in basketball which was kinda insulting really to Wilt who was bigger, faster and stronger. Also not to mention about endurance on and off the court.

 

[Coronis]

Don’t know anything about Soccer really. But modern fans talking nonsense of course happens in all sport. There were lots of talks about Lebron being the greatest athlete in basketball which was kinda insulting really to Wilt who was bigger, faster and stronger. Also not to mention about endurance on and off the court.

Remember that time LeBron played 48.5 mins per game that one season?

 

[OverratedSanity]

We aren't chastizing those past players, but simply saying that players in the modern era were better tested in a more professional setup and therefore we can have more confidence in their greatness.

I don't buy the better tested argument when there were challenges unique to the 40s/50s era that modern cricketers didn't have to face either.

 

[Socerer 01]

Don’t know anything about Soccer really. But modern fans talking nonsense of course happens in all sport. There were lots of talks about Lebron being the greatest athlete in basketball which was kinda insulting really to Wilt who was bigger, faster and stronger. Also not to mention about endurance on and off the court.

comparing apples and oranges here with football and basketball and doing the old back in my day routine too, nice

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

comparing apples and oranges here with football and basketball and doing the old back in my day routine too, nice

Well,what has my post anything to do with Soccer and those 2 soccer players at all?
I was just mentioning a outlandish type of statement being all over which was only there because of total recency bias.

 

[Ali TT]

Don’t know anything about Soccer really. But modern fans talking nonsense of course happens in all sport. There were lots of talks about Lebron being the greatest athlete in basketball which was kinda insulting really to Wilt who was bigger, faster and stronger. Also not to mention about endurance on and off the court.

Yeah but Wilt played against plumbers.

Would anyone here argue that if we took Sachin, Lara or Wasim from the early 90s to play a test tomorrow that they'd really struggle?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Would anyone here argue that if we took Sachin, Lara or Wasim from the early 90s to play a test tomorrow that they'd really struggle?

Mohammad Wasim would probably struggle

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Yeah but Wilt played against plumbers.

Would anyone here argue that if we took Sachin, Lara or Wasim from the early 90s to play a test tomorrow that they'd really struggle?

I dont want to go on about explaining those myths about plumber talks. But why does competition even matter when talking about athlete.
And wait you are not saying this guy directly transported from his time at his peak would struggle against 26 inch vert Jokic? The intro consists of few lines from the current MVP on Wilt.