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Are modern greats simply better?

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
This is regarding greats in the modern period, basically mid-70s onwards, and how they compare with the pre-modern post War era. Was there an added competitive spirit and professionalism brought by the Aussies and the Packer revolution that took the quality of cricket in this era beyond the skill level of what was before? How should we compare their records and achievements then?
 

Patience and Accuracy+Gut

State Vice-Captain
Objectively Average player of right now are definitely better than those of 70s,80s. And those players were definitely better than those 40-50 years ago with some exception on ATGs.

No player on 70s,80s were even objectively imho anywhere comparable to Bradman nor was any spinner anyway comparable to O’Reilly.

Think absolute great players would do good enough regardless of eras.
 
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social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Cricket is far less “combative” than back in the day e.g. Kerry Packer was forced to turn down the stump mikes due to the sledging

Do we discount modern performances because they don’t have to deal with racism?

Different eras are different
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
Always adjust for era. Full stop.
Always adjust for the fact that if the pool of competitive cricketers in the period from 1920-25 was 100, then in 1950-55 it could be 1,000, and in 1980-85 2,500. Obviously, it's more impressive to be in the top 10 or 20 in the latter eras than top 3 in the former.

#Maths
 

Patience and Accuracy+Gut

State Vice-Captain
Always adjust for the fact that if the pool of competitive cricketers in the period from 1920-25 was 100, then in 1950-55 it could be 1,000, and in 1980-85 2,500. Obviously, it's more impressive to be in the top 10 or 20 in the latter eras than top 3 in the former.

#Maths
If you are going about talent pool, I would like to go to the talent pool of the most successful cricket nation of them all I.e Australia.

There should be no doubt at all more people played cricket in Australia during Trumper-Bradman era compared to now or 70/80s.

Outside of few Anglo-private schools,may be 1 kid in 20 plays cricket (thats actually being liberal). So the top players came from far larger talent pool in Australia compared to the modern times or 70s/80s.

My estimate is that less than 250,000 males play cricket in Australia at the moment, whereas in 1902, the equivalent number would be 750,000 (from a total population of 4 million,with a quarter ‘males of cricket playing age’ that is 1 million potential players and probably 75 percent of these played cricket.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Objectively Average player of right now are definitely better than those of 70s,80s. And those players were definitely better than those 40-50 years ago with some exception on ATGs.

No player on 70s,80s were even objectively imho anywhere comparable to Bradman nor was any spinner anyway comparable to O’Reilly.

Think absolute great players would do good enough regardless of eras.
How are bats with their T20 techniques better in test cricket now than in the 70s?
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
The total talent pool of another big cricket playing nation in England right now compared to Hobbs-Bradman era would be total insult. There would be at least 8-10x more cricket players in England in Hobbs-Bradman era to now.

Yeah,Talent pool!
Yeah, Shortpitched couldn't be more wrong here, at least in terms of established cricketing nations. Far more people played cricket in England and Australia in the 1920s than they do now. Not sure if it is 8-10x more, but it may well be on a proportional basis after adjusting for the relative populations at the time.
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
To Massive Zebra's points, there are a hell of a lot of players playing cricket outside England and Australia. Neither the entire subcontinent, nor the West Indies were playing, South Africa were total minnows, etc.
 

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
They are definitely better. Not up for serious debate that the increased athleticism and bowling speeds has raised the overall standard greatly since the 70s onwards.

Greater though, not necessarily. Imo you have to look at their performance relative to peers to evaluate greatness . A mistake a lot of people make is only look at the advantages players of previous eras had (less competition/smaller talent pool/less variety of conditions apart from stickies) and ignore the huge number of disadvantages (gruelling travel, worse equipment, etc). The fact that batting and bowling averages of all ATG players since ww2 have stayed mostly within the 50-60 range and 20-25 range respectively is a good indicator that the factors have mostly evened out.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
They are definitely better. Not up for serious debate that the increased athleticism and bowling speeds has raised the overall standard greatly since the 70s onwards.

Greater though, not necessarily. Imo you have to look at their performance relative to peers to evaluate greatness . A mistake a lot of people make is only look at the advantages players of previous eras had (less competition/smaller talent pool/less variety of conditions apart from stickies) and ignore the huge number of disadvantages (gruelling travel, worse equipment, etc). The fact that batting and bowling averages of all ATG players since ww2 have stayed mostly within the 50-60 range and 20-25 range respectively is a good indicator that the factors have mostly evened out.
Thanks. That is a fairly balanced opinion. But I think the greater/better distinction can be blurry and arbitrary.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
My estimate is that less than 250,000 males play cricket in Australia at the moment, whereas in 1902, the equivalent number would be 750,000 (from a total population of 4 million,with a quarter ‘males of cricket playing age’ that is 1 million potential players and probably 75 percent of these played cricket.
Hasn't the population increased though in all these countries since the 20s?
 

Ali TT

International Vice-Captain
How are bats with their T20 techniques better in test cricket now than in the 70s?
Is it even about better or worse? The end of uncovered pitches brought to an end a whole set of playing styles and techniques which have probably now been lost. No doubt a modern player would need to adapt on a sticky wicket, or matting. At the same time, a bowler from that era would have to adjust to face batters that have a whole array of shots that weren't really used in their time.
 

Ali TT

International Vice-Captain
How I see it is that if you take some long-playing ATGs, it's not been many handing overs of the baton between, e.g Steve Smith and the Don, or Anderson and Lindwall. Given how those players excelled over such long periods, suggests one of two things.

Firstly, if the game overall has got better, then ATG players have had to adapt so that they continually get better. While it might be that if we plucked Neil Harvey straight out of the 50s to play a game today, he might not get on that well but under this hypothesis we'd assume that if he had the same opportunities as other modern players, he'd succeed as he did way back when.

The other option is the game really doesn't move on that much. I'm less convinced by this - comparisons to other sports suggest athletes have got fitter, stronger, faster and off field coaching and support better. It also doesn't reflect how the game itself has changed.

If we believe the game evolves, then we also have to accept that over time, certain aptitudes are selected out and others for. As mentioned in my last post, the skills needed to thrive on sticky wickets have likely been lost to some degree. However, a modern great has probably got to adapt to a greater variety of pitch conditions and opponent batting/bowling skills and techniques than one who played 50+ years ago. If "Bazball" becomes de rigeur then we may never see the likes of a Dravid, Kallis or Cook in the future as the requirement to accumulate over long periods of time will have been selected out. Perhaps in that case, an ATG really is only a player who transcends eras like a Tendulkar, Imran or Anderson by continually improving and adapting.
 

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