Greater cricketer: Wasim Akram or Jacques Kallis

[Bolo.]

I am in the minority on this I admit. I don't take that average seriously and neither should you.

Kallis the bat wasn't an ATG. He wasn't thought of one during his career and retroactively putting him as one is only a CW thing.

 

[subshakerz]

View attachment 37047

LOL that's the thing, nobody questions Kallis was an ATG allrounder. He clearly was.

I just don't think he was Wasim's equivalent in his specialisation.

 

[Bolo.]

LOL that's the thing, nobody questions Kallis was an ATG allrounder. He clearly was.

I just don't think he was Wasim's equivalent in his specialisation.

Ignore the AR thing. He was being compared to sachin as a bat and separately to Zaheer as a bowler. The comms team had a pretty lengthy on these points individually. They did say Zaheer was better but said the batting was too close to call IIRC.

That's sachin just after his second wind but before his late career slump when he was pretty much universally being recognized as the best in modern cricket BTW.

 

[subshakerz]

Ignore the AR thing. He was being compared to sachin as a bat and separately to Zaheer as a bowler. The comms team had a pretty lengthy on these points individually. They did say Zaheer was better but said the batting was too close to call IIRC.

That's sachin just after his second wind but before his late career slump when he was pretty much universally being recognized as the best in modern cricket BTW.

His average was being compared to Sachin's. I don't think it was seriously suggested he was at Sachin's level.

In fact, this sort of thing happens to Kallis. There is very little those in favor of propping Kallis as an ATG have to say except 'high average'. There are plenty of bats with high averages, like Weekes or Walcott, who are considered greats but short of ATG.

 

[Bolo.]

His average was being compared to Sachin's. I don't think it was seriously suggested he was at Sachin's level.

In fact, this sort of thing happens to Kallis. There is very little those in favor of propping Kallis as an ATG have to say except 'high average'. There are plenty of bats with high averages, like Weekes or Walcott, who are considered greats but short of ATG.

Wrong. The infographic was just averages. It was used as a springboard into a very serious discussion about who was better.

 

[subshakerz]

Wrong. The infographic was just averages. It was used as a springboard into a very serious discussion about who was better.

Ok but that must have been a rare discussion then in Tendulkar's career.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Kallis was definitely closer to Sachin as a batsman than Zaheer as a bowler.

 

[subshakerz]

Kallis was definitely closer to Sachin as a batsman than Zaheer as a bowler.

Of course. Just a level or two below Sachin.

 

[Bolo.]

Ok but that must have been a rare discussion then in Tendulkar's career.

I heard the comparison come up a bunch of times. I remember it concluding in Kallis' favour more than once.

 

[subshakerz]

I heard the comparison come up a bunch of times. I remember it concluding in Kallis' favour more than once.

I never heard it. What I did hear was occasional surprise later in Kallis' career at how high his average was.

During Kallis' first peak in the early mid 2000s, he was firmly behind Ponting, Dravid, and probably Hayden and others.

 

[BazBall21]

Kallis’s average actually goes up when you adjust for conditions and eras.

His adjusted away average goes down by five runs. South Africans of that era enjoyed particularly good batting conditions due to conscious attempts to neutralise their bowling attack that was the best around. Graeme Smith loses 8 and a half runs from his away average when accounting for the runs top 7s made across the overseas tests he featured in.

 

[Howe_zat]

I heard the comparison come up a bunch of times. I remember it concluding in Kallis' favour more than once.

I never heard it. What I did hear was occasional surprise later in Kallis' career at how high his average was.

During Kallis' first peak in the early mid 2000s, he was firmly behind Ponting, Dravid, and probably Hayden and others.

This really aptly demonstrates the futility of overrated/underrated discussion
It's mostly about which nation's TV commentary you spend your time listening to and not about the cricketers at all

 

[Bolo.]

This really aptly demonstrates the futility of overrated/underrated discussion
It's mostly about which nation's TV commentary you spend your time listening to and not about the cricketers at all

That's the point I'm making. He was not as underrated as Subs is claiming, and the way players are rated can be more than a bit dumb.

 

[subshakerz]

That's the point I'm making. He was not as underrated as Subs is claiming, and the way players are rated can be more than a bit dumb.

I always concede that Kallis was rated as a great and SA's best batsman ever.

But an ATG batsman? The only ones I see regularly described that way nineties onwards were Tendulkar, Lara, Waugh, Ponting, and Steve Smith. Kohli was getting there too at one point but then declined sharply. Basically, best of the era bats.

 

[number11]

Akram is a top tier ATG and [almost] a lock for an AT xi. Kallis is not close to the AT xi. Akram was the cricketer of the 90s.

 

[subshakerz]

Akram is a top tier ATG and [almost] a lock for an AT xi. Kallis is not close to the AT xi. Akram was the cricketer of the 90s.

This is the point. Akram is seen by most of his peers as the best pacer of his era. Kallis is not close to that as a batsman, he was just a regular great along with the bunch of Dravid, Hayden, Sehwag, Yousuf, Clarke, Sanga, Inzi, Jaya, etc.

 

[Bolo.]

I always concede that Kallis was rated as a great and SA's best batsman ever.

But an ATG batsman? The only ones I see regularly described that way nineties onwards were Tendulkar, Lara, Waugh, Ponting, and Steve Smith. Kohli was getting there too at one point but then declined sharply. Basically, best of the era bats.

You have different standards to ATG to most. Very few people deny guys like Kallis and dravid the status.

It really doesn't matter where an individual draws a line in the sand on ATG though. The quality exists independently of an arbitrarily created definition.

 

[Coronis]

LOL that's the thing, nobody questions Kallis was an ATG allrounder. He clearly was.

I just don't think he was Wasim's equivalent in his specialisation.

I don’t think anyone here thinks he was Wasim’s equivalent in his specialisation. However whilst Wasim was a useful tailender, Kallis was also an excellent 5th bowler (note: when I use the term “excellent” I am referring to 5th bowlers in an ATG XI context specifically) and an excellent slip fielder.

Also just for some Kallis the batsman appreciation. Since SA’s readmission to test cricket these are the averages for SA batsmen at home (min 2000 runs)

de Villiers 4788 @ 47.40
Amla 5135 @ 46.68
Elgar 3278 @ 46.16
Cullinan 2363 @ 44.58
Prince 2231 @ 43.74
du Plessis 2952 @ 43.20
Kirsten 3384 @ 42.30
Smith 3986 @ 41.52
Gibbs 3055 @ 41.28
Boucher 3001 @ 33.71


and then there’s Kallis

7035 runs @ 56.73

insane imo


(also props to every SA batsman who’s played for a decent amount of time for all averaging 40+ at home)

 

[subshakerz]

You have different standards to ATG to most. Very few people deny guys like Kallis and dravid the status.

It really doesn't matter where an individual draws a line in the sand on ATG though. The quality exists independently of an arbitrarily created definition.

ATG to me means top of the tree, considered best of your era for some stretch, and by the time of your career end you are not being compared with your peers but the Vivs and Chappells of other eras.

 

[subshakerz]

I don’t think anyone here thinks he was Wasim’s equivalent in his specialisation. However whilst Wasim was a useful tailender, Kallis was also an excellent 5th bowler (note: when I use the term “excellent” I am referring to 5th bowlers in an ATG XI context specifically) and an excellent slip fielder.

Also just for some Kallis the batsman appreciation. Since SA’s readmission to test cricket these are the averages for SA batsmen at home (min 2000 runs)

de Villiers 4788 @ 47.40
Amla 5135 @ 46.68
Elgar 3278 @ 46.16
Cullinan 2363 @ 44.58
Prince 2231 @ 43.74
du Plessis 2952 @ 43.20
Kirsten 3384 @ 42.30
Smith 3986 @ 41.52
Gibbs 3055 @ 41.28
Boucher 3001 @ 33.71


and then there’s Kallis

7035 runs @ 56.73

insane imo


(also props to every SA batsman who’s played for a decent amount of time for all averaging 40+ at home)

Kallis' home average is certainly his best achievement.

However, his major downside and the reason he never generated any ATG heat in his career is that he lacked an accelerator gear unlike other mainstays like Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting and was just a static, one-dimensional accumulator. And unlike Dravid, who was also a slowpoke, he rarely translated his knocks into daddy hundreds or mega series that really punished the opposition for not dismissing him. The net effect of both of these is he wasn't seen as the same level of threat.

To be fair, he rectified these issues towards the end of his career but his reputation was already solidified by then.