The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[TheJediBrah]

Kallis at 6 is really suboptimal and I don't trust him to be the 5th bowler more than Sobers. He doesn't give you a second spin option either.

Kallis shouldn't be in at ATG team. He's not that useful at 6 compared to a more aggressive batsman, his bowling is virtually a non entity at this level and you should be picking Sobers so it's irrelevant anyway.

Most he's going to do is draw you games that you should have won. Better off having a Keith Miller or Imran Khan if you need him as a bowling option, or just a better specialist batsman if you already have Sobers + 4 bowlers

 

[trundler]

Kallis shouldn't be in at ATG team. He's not that useful at 6 compared to a more aggressive batsman, his bowling is virtually a non entity at this level and you should be picking Sobers so it's irrelevant anyway.

Most he's going to do is draw you games that you should have won. Better off having a Keith Miller or Imran Khan if you need him as a bowling option, or just a better specialist batsman if you already have Sobers + 4 bowlers

Yes that's what I said

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yes that's what I said

I expanded significantly on your insufficient offering

 

[trundler]

I expanded significantly on your insufficient offering

I was concise

 

[TheJediBrah]

I know you don't want to hear this trundler, but bigger is better

 

[The Sean]

Kallis shouldn't be in at ATG team. He's not that useful at 6 compared to a more aggressive batsman, his bowling is virtually a non entity at this level and you should be picking Sobers so it's irrelevant anyway.

Most he's going to do is draw you games that you should have won. Better off having a Keith Miller or Imran Khan if you need him as a bowling option, or just a better specialist batsman if you already have Sobers + 4 bowlers

I reckon in this format you could play Wally Hammond. You get another all-time level batsman, he and Sobers can share fifth bowling duties on the basis that both will be used minimally anyway, and the pace attack will love it because with Hammond at first slip and Sobers at second they'll know that none of their edges are getting dropped.

 

[trundler]

I know you don't want to hear this trundler, but bigger is better

Don't make me post the screenshot again

 

[trundler]

From a balance perspective I want a spin bowling Miller at 6. Faulkner is the closest thing but it's hard to put someone who played 20 tests, mostly pre War, in an all time side.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Don't make me post the screenshot again

That was for your mother's eyes only

 

[trundler]

That was for your mother's eyes only

She has PTSD now. I thought you knew of her microphobia.

 

[The Sean]

From a balance perspective I want a spin bowling Miller at 6. Faulkner is the closest thing but it's hard to put someone who played 20 tests, mostly pre War, in an all time side.

If you're looking for a closest equivalent, then The Answer is probably...

 

[TheJediBrah]

Unless you're on a real spin friendly pitch then 1 spinner + sobers is plenty. For spinning conditions just play 2 proper spinners

 

[trundler]

Unless you're on a real spin friendly pitch then 1 spinner + sobers is plenty. For spinning conditions just play 2 proper spinners

Sobers was bad as a spinner:

You are right. See below.



There is actually a reasonable amount of information regarding which style Sobers was bowling, some of it in the comprehensive thread just linked.



For the first five years of his Test career he bowled only finger-spin; the next two seasons only wrist-spin.



His quicker style began in Australia in 1960-61 and largely dominated from then on, apart from the home series against India in 1962 when he bowled mainly wrist-spin. A shoulder injury in 1966 more or less put paid to the wrist-spin. So he reverted to finger-spin on slower pitches, usually in support of Gibbs. From this point Sobers would sometimes save his spin for the second innings.



The figures below are estimates only. Fewer wickets with spin than I assumed in the earlier post.



Quicker style: 147 wickets @ 31

Wrist-spin: 42 @ 33

Finger-spin: 46 @ 42



Total: 235 wickets @ 34



The numbers probably broadly reflect views of the relative merit of his three styles.

I don't think Sobers's spin is good enough to be the second spinner on a turner unless it's a Clarke 6/9 pitch.

 

[Prince EWS]

I don't think Sobers's spin is good enough to be the second spinner on a turner unless it's a Clarke 6/9 pitch.

Yeah but he's good enough to be the third quick in a team with two proper spinners. If it's gonna rag just drop a quick and play both Murali and Warne.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Sobers was bad as a spinner

You don't need a 2nd spinner. And if you do then you pick 2 specialists

Edit: basically what PEWS said

 

[trundler]

Yeah but he's good enough to be the third quick in a team with two proper spinners. If it's gonna rag just drop a quick and play both Murali and Warne.

Yes but I'm trying to make a single XI that's great across conditions. 2 spinners is overkill in most places but you do need a second spinner who's good enough when conditions suit spin.

 

[Coronis]

I reckon in this format you could play Wally Hammond. You get another all-time level batsman, he and Sobers can share fifth bowling duties on the basis that both will be used minimally anyway, and the pace attack will love it because with Hammond at first slip and Sobers at second they'll know that none of their edges are getting dropped.

I knew it, I’ve been right all along.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yes but I'm trying to make a single XI that's great across conditions.

Yeah I'd probably leave out Hammond or Tendulkar for Faulkner if I really wanted to do that. Given Faulkner is a leggie I might also leave Warne out for Murali given I find them pretty hard to split in the first place.

 

[shortpitched713]

I don't think Sobers's spin is good enough to be the second spinner on a turner unless it's a Clarke 6/9 pitch.

Depends on which version of Sobers your time machine spits out. Generally though I would agree.

 

[kyear2]

Kallis at 6 is really suboptimal and I don't trust him to be the 5th bowler more than Sobers. He doesn't give you a second spin option either.

Sobers would fill the 2nd spin action if required.
And not about trusting Kallis more, would be interested to see an unencumbered Sobers. His two most valuable and scalable skills in such an scenario would be his batting and cathing in any event.

But just a thought. Could even use him and Hammond to split the bowling duties if Kallis is too much of a drop off in batting.