Garry Sobers vs Jacques Kallis (as bowlers)

[peterhrt]

This surprises me, as I'd always assumed the proportion was somewhat higher than that.

You are right. See below.

There is actually a reasonable amount of information regarding which style Sobers was bowling, some of it in the comprehensive thread just linked.

For the first five years of his Test career he bowled only finger-spin; the next two seasons only wrist-spin.

His quicker style began in Australia in 1960-61 and largely dominated from then on, apart from the home series against India in 1962 when he bowled mainly wrist-spin. A shoulder injury in 1966 more or less put paid to the wrist-spin. So he reverted to finger-spin on slower pitches, usually in support of Gibbs. From this point Sobers would sometimes save his spin for the second innings.

The figures below are estimates only. Fewer wickets with spin than I assumed in the earlier post.

Quicker style: 147 wickets @ 31
Wrist-spin: 42 @ 33
Finger-spin: 46 @ 42

Total: 235 wickets @ 34

The numbers probably broadly reflect views of the relative merit of his three styles.

 

[shortpitched713]

Wow, that's really insightful, and a bit opposite of what I would have expected in the spin department. Would have thought wristspin would be kind of gimmicky, with him relying on the easier to use finger spin. But he seems more or less part time quality in fingerspin with the damage being done with the wrist spin, until his shoulder injury.

More or less what I expected, in terms of being better, for average, with the pace bowling though.

So in an all-time context, for a bowler you'd be picking up primarily a fast medium seamer, as his primary attribute, and a left arm wrist-spinner, as a secondary option if you really needed it for some reason. The SLA orthodox stuff can be pretty much ignored as suboptimal.

 

[peterhrt]

So in an all-time context, for a bowler you'd be picking up primarily a fast medium seamer, as his primary attribute, and a left arm wrist-spinner, as a secondary option if you really needed it for some reason. The SLA orthodox stuff can be pretty much ignored as suboptimal.

The all-time context is theoretical of course, but Sobers' quicker stuff was most effective with the new ball (so was Hammond's incidentally). Sobers' most potent weapon was late inswing for which he needed shine on the ball.

Would Sobers ever take the new ball for an all-time team? If not, he might well end up acting as fifth bowler, in which case he would probably be bowling spin.

 

[shortpitched713]

But definitely wrist spin. You'd never want him bowling the orthodox stuff, as presumably you'd be getting a Sobers with a healthy shoulder.

 

[fredfertang]

Sobers was a wonderful bowler - in 1970 in the subsequently downgraded series of Tests between England and the Rest of the World he was absolutely brilliant at Lord's - still the best spell of swing bowling I've ever seen - 20-11-21-6

 

[Bolo.]

But definitely wrist spin. You'd never want him bowling the orthodox stuff, as presumably you'd be getting a Sobers with a healthy shoulder.

The above suggests he didn't know how to bowl wrist spin at the start, and couldn't at the end. You are looking at less than 1/3 of his career in which wrist spin is an option- you can't pick him in a hypothetical team to bowl much of it.

 

[Coronis]

The above suggests he didn't know how to bowl wrist spin at the start, and couldn't at the end. You are looking at less than 1/3 of his career in which wrist spin is an option- you can't pick him in a hypothetical team to bowl much of it.

Why not? We’re asking him to be a 5th bowler not the frontline spinner. Besides during that period he was bowling wrist spin he’s overall averaging ~65 and sub 30, over what 30+ tests, not like its a small sample size.

 

[Bolo.]

Why not? We’re asking him to be a 5th bowler not the frontline spinner. Besides during that period he was bowling wrist spin he’s overall averaging ~65 and sub 30, over what 30+ tests, not like its a small sample size.

It's less than 20% of his wickets. Happy picking AB as a keeper/bat?

It's a very low absolute number of wickets. Happy picking Procter?

In time, it's a low number of actual years and a low proportion of his playing years. Happy picking Botham?

Personally, I'm answering no to all of the above and assuming he bowls all 3 styles. His pace bowing likely wouldn't be notably worse than his wrist spin anyway even if he takes a knock from being the 4th seamer. Just got to treat him as a part timer for finger spin.

But if you are more of a pick on short peaks kinda person, go for it.

 

[kyear2]

There was quite a good thread on Sobers’ bowling career - particularly these posts from SJS on the last page offer a great amount of info.

Celebrating Sir Garry Sobers - The Bowler

In their famous book on fast bowlers, From Larwood to Lillee, Ms Trueman and Bailey write glowingly of Sobers the bowler. Trevor Bailey, one of the most articulate of cricketer turned writers, discusses all aspects of Sobers bowling below in great detail. In many respects his unique ability to...

www.cricketweb.net

Celebrating Sir Garry Sobers - The Bowler

In their famous book on fast bowlers, From Larwood to Lillee, Ms Trueman and Bailey write glowingly of Sobers the bowler. Trevor Bailey, one of the most articulate of cricketer turned writers, discusses all aspects of Sobers bowling below in great detail. In many respects his unique ability to...

www.cricketweb.net

These were a brilliant read, thanks for the reminder....

 

[Coronis]

It's less than 20% of his wickets. Happy picking AB as a keeper/bat?

It's a very low absolute number of wickets. Happy picking Procter?

In time, it's a low number of actual years and a low proportion of his playing years. Happy picking Botham?

Personally, I'm answering no to all of the above and assuming he bowls all 3 styles. His pace bowing likely wouldn't be notably worse than his wrist spin anyway even if he takes a knock from being the 4th seamer. Just got to treat him as a part timer for finger spin.

But if you are more of a pick on short peaks kinda person, go for it.

Well considering all 3 of these are consistently picked for their countries ATG XI’s in those roles, yeah I’m perfectly fine picking him. He’s bowling as a 5th bowler, he won’t be required to bowl a high number of overs, all he’s there for (as a bowler - I’m picking him regardless as a batsman) is to bowl a few overs giving the main bowlers (particularly the pace bowlers) a break.

 

[Bolo.]

Well considering all 3 of these are consistently picked for their countries ATG XI’s in those roles, yeah I’m perfectly fine picking him. He’s bowling as a 5th bowler, he won’t be required to bowl a high number of overs, all he’s there for (as a bowler - I’m picking him regardless as a batsman) is to bowl a few overs giving the main bowlers (particularly the pace bowlers) a break.

I mean in a world test context, not a best national players one.

Like most other people, I'm picking Sobers in a world test side, but I'm not picking him with the assumption that he can bowl wrist spin at any given point- it's too small a part of his career, and the wrist spin is icing when you get it. It would be a bit like picking Imran in the role of batting AR based on his last few years.

 

[Coronis]

I mean in a world test context, not a best national players one.

Like most other people, I'm picking Sobers in a world test side, but I'm not picking him with the assumption that he can bowl wrist spin at any given point- it's too small a part of his career, and the wrist spin is icing when you get it. It would be a bit like picking Imran in the role of batting AR based on his last few years.

Well like I’ve said previously - I’ve picked my team as 6 batters, 1 keeper bat and 4 bowlers. The fact that Sobers and Hammond (and to a much lesser extent Tendulkar) can bowl a few overs to give them a rest is just icing on the cake for me - if the conditions are spin friendly give Sobers and Sachin a couple overs to roll over, same for Sobers and Hammond if its seam friendly.

Generally it will likely be trivial bowling either way but its nice to have the extra options.

 

[shortpitched713]

I think Kallis was the better batsman but Sobers was the better bowler.

I love having this edgy opinion tbh.

Where does Sobers land for you as a batsmen, in a list of batsmen only debuting after 1970 ( + Sobers obviously )?

I need to know how crazy you are, and whether my kind of crazy can hang with your kind of crazy.

 

[Coronis]

Where does Sobers land for you as a batsmen, in a list of batsmen only debuting after 1970 ( + Sobers obviously )?

I need to know how crazy you are, and whether my kind of crazy can hang with your kind of crazy.

You already won with your Hayden take tbh.

 

[shortpitched713]

You already won with your Hayden take tbh.

He could have Sobers below Pujara. Give him a chance mate.

 

[BazBall21]

WPM

Sobers 2.53
Kallis 1.76

Sobers bowling pace is generally estimated to have crept below Kallis' average but he also bowled spme spin which he shouldn't be penalised for. His variety is an asset instead. Sobers bowled in a flatter era too.
Kallis took 51 wickets in 61 tests across eight of the ten countries he toured. Part-timer territory. Sobers also hardly bowled against the weakest side of his era, New Zealand, and took lots of wickets against England. He had great success against Ted Dexter in his prime during the 1963 series for instance.
A contrast to Kallis, who statpadded heavily against Bangladesh/Zimbabwe and has modest figures against the top batting sides of his era.

 

[fredfertang]

The Greatest struggled with the bat against NZ as well, averaging just 23 in 12 Tests - that he needed to be tested by the very best is further evidence of his pre-eminence in my, admittedly biased, opinion

 

[Prince EWS]

Where does Sobers land for you as a batsmen, in a list of batsmen only debuting after 1970 ( + Sobers obviously )?

I need to know how crazy you are, and whether my kind of crazy can hang with your kind of crazy.

Third behind Tendulkar and Kallis.

 

[shortpitched713]

Third behind Tendulkar and Kallis.

Holy crap, so Kallis as a bat gets above all of Steve Smith, Lara, Gavaskar, Viv Richards (and Sanga, Root, Hayden and Miandad too) in your books?

That is delightfully heterodox. Please show me more about your methodology, and I may also be interested in a subscription to your newsletter.

 

[Coronis]

Never pegged you for heterodox @Prince EWS