The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[TheJediBrah]

Steve Smith's peak/prime also lasted about 5 years. It was from 2014-2019.

(in fact, in 2018 he really didn't really play and was below par in SA)

Smith hasn't been at the same level since Ashes 2019. This is quite similar to Ponting tbh. Just that Smith hasn't yet fallen off completely, though it might happen as he ages.

Very good points. Big difference between the 2 in terms of what they've done though. Ponting, much like Sanga but to a lesser extent, generally dominated weaker bowling and in easier conditions than Smith has. While the overall numbers look similar, Smith's have been on average higher quality runs

 

[centurymaker]

I reckon we should reserve judgment on Smith until he is closer to retirement or has retired.

I have Smith slightly ahead of Punter atm because of his away record tho it's over smaller sample size.

 

[centurymaker]

I think I have Lara ahead of Smith for now --due to a few reasons --but also because I am a firm believer that not outs often mean nothing, and especially when your team's been bowled out.

Lara runs per innings- 11953/232 = 51.52
Smith runs per innings- 9320/181 = 51.49

This is how much on average that they've contributed each innings they have batted.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Smith's peak is significantly more impressive than Ponting/Sanga etc. because of the circumstances he got many of those runs in, especially away from home. Even if he has a big decline I'm not willing to drop him out of the top tier of batsmen.

 

[kyear2]

Hobbs probably has the best case among everyone in the group to be second best ever after Bradman, Dominance+Peak +Technique +Series dominance+ Adaptibility+ Longevity all rolled in one.Marginally Below Hobbs for me are Sobers and Smith and then I have Richards,Hammond,Tendulkar,Hutton,Lara etc.

So I'm about to be ridiculed again, but I can't agree with this take.

Hobbs was a great player for the time he played, but that time can't be remotely compared to the game we watch today.
Even from reading his Wisden overview cricket just isn't the same. He was scoring hundreds at 46 and was reputed to get out after scoring a hundred to give others a go.
Yes he played a long time and on some dodgy wickets but whom did he play against?
He virtually played against two countries (just 2 games vs the WI), one of which was a minnow and the bowlers he faced can't be remotely compared to who Sachin, Viv, BCL, Hutton, Gavaskar, Smith or even Sobers faced.
I include him as a ceremonial position and he was great within his time, but he wasn't the best after Bradman. Level and variety of completion has to count for something.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

So I'm about to be ridiculed again, but I can't agree with this take.

Hobbs was a great player for the time he played, but that time can't be remotely compared to the game we watch today.
Even from reading his Wisden overview cricket just isn't the same. He was scoring hundreds at 46 and was reputed to get out after scoring a hundred to give others a go.
Yes he played a long time and on some dodgy wickets but whom did he play against?
He virtually played against two countries (just 2 games vs the WI), one of which was a minnow and the bowlers he faced can't be remotely compared to who Sachin, Viv, BCL, Hutton, Gavaskar, Smith or even Sobers faced.
I include him as a ceremonial position and he was great within his time, but he wasn't the best after Bradman. Level and variety of completion has to count for something.

If you are going objectively, De Villiers is almost unquestionably a better batsman than Richards and by a good margin but I don’t see him being mentioned in this type of discussion.You can only face who is in front of you and Hobbs surpassed them all.

 

[kyear2]

If you are going objectively, De Villiers is almost unquestionably a better batsman than Richards and by a good margin but I don’t see him being mentioned in this type of discussion.You can only face who is in front of you and Hobbs surpassed them all.

There's a reason why no one has Cousy, Russell or even Wilt in all time NBA teams, or why Emerson and Laver aren't in the GOAT conversation, or Margaret Court for that matter. Let's go to football, they don't reference Bart Starr, or especially Otto Graham.

They acknowledge Wilt played against 6'6 centres, that Cousy and Russell played against "plumbers and carpenters"
In tennis they don't even include players before the open era in the conversations.

They've noticed and acknowledged that the sports have evolved and even though they had no control over who they went up against, it still matters.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Adorable Asshole]

There's a reason why no one has Cousy, Russell or even Wilt in all time NBA teams, or why Emerson and Laver aren't in the GOAT conversation, or Margaret Court for that matter. Let's go to football, they don't reference Bart Starr, or especially Otto Graham.

They acknowledge Wilt played against 6'6 centres, that Cousy and Russell played against "plumbers and carpenters"
In tennis they don't even include players before the open era in the conversations.

They've noticed and acknowledged that the sports have evolved and even though they had no control over who they went up against, it still matters.

Just my 2 cents

That's bullshit

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

There's a reason why no one has Cousy, Russell or even Wilt in all time NBA teams, or why Emerson and Laver aren't in the GOAT conversation, or Margaret Court for that matter. Let's go to football, they don't reference Bart Starr, or especially Otto Graham.

They acknowledge Wilt played against 6'6 centres, that Cousy and Russell played against "plumbers and carpenters"
In tennis they don't even include players before the open era in the conversations.


They've noticed and acknowledged that the sports have evolved and even though they had no control over who they went up against, it still matters.

Just my 2 cents

Being a Wilt fan,that actually shows the stupidity of basketball fans as centers were 6 ft 10 and half (barefoot) when Wilt played rather than 6 ft 6. In his prime, Wilt played big men Bill Russell, Jerry Lucas, Walt Bellamy, Bob Pettit, Nate Thurmond and Wayne Embry.He is the Goat in my book regardless of all the ridiculous take any modern fans give.

Anyway as Wilt said Nobody roots for Goliath.It was same in his time and it’s same today.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Russell and Wilt's names definitely come up in GOAT conversations.

 

[the big bambino]

I'm not sure if the story about Hobbs getting out to give others a go is actually true. Certainly not in tests. Nice to see CW play both sides of the street though. Anderson taking wickets at 40 proves how fantastic modern bowlers are but Hobbs scoring runs at 46 ... hmmm. Clive Lloyd at 40 - what a player. Ditto Boycs, Gooch and Misbah. Even Pollock was hammering Rackemann and Hogg when in his 40s. But Hobbs ... It's true he only played basically 2 opponents. If he played a variety as do modern players his ave would've been higher.

 

[TheJediBrah]

If you are going objectively, De Villiers is almost unquestionably a better batsman than Richards and by a good margin but I don’t see him being mentioned in this type of discussion.You can only face who is in front of you and Hobbs surpassed them all.

I think the difference in the standard of cricket between Hobbs and the others is a lot bigger than the standard between Viv and de Villiers. Professionalism has improved for sure but the standard of cricket in the 70s and 80s was at least very close, some would even say better, than Test cricket now.

Whereas back in the 1910s cricket was very different

 

[ataraxia]

I'm not sure if the story about Hobbs getting out to give others a go is actually true. Certainly not in tests. Nice to see CW play both sides of the street though. Anderson taking wickets at 40 proves how fantastic modern bowlers are but Hobbs scoring runs at 46 ... hmmm. Clive Lloyd at 40 - what a player. Ditto Boycs, Gooch and Misbah. Even Pollock was hammering Rackemann and Hogg when in his 40s. But Hobbs ... It's true he only played basically 2 opponents. If he played a variety as do modern players his ave would've been higher.

It certainly is odd to use Hobbs' getting out purposefully upon reaching 100 to give others a go against him. I think that is a true story by the way for county cricket, probably mostly pre-war.

 

[Coronis]

WI are playing in Australia again??!! WHY ???!!!

So Warner can retire on a high iirc.

 

[Coronis]

There's a reason why no one has Cousy, Russell or even Wilt in all time NBA teams, or why Emerson and Laver aren't in the GOAT conversation, or Margaret Court for that matter. Let's go to football, they don't reference Bart Starr, or especially Otto Graham.

They acknowledge Wilt played against 6'6 centres, that Cousy and Russell played against "plumbers and carpenters"
In tennis they don't even include players before the open era in the conversations.

They've noticed and acknowledged that the sports have evolved and even though they had no control over who they went up against, it still matters.

Just my 2 cents

I mean, I personally have Russell and Wilt as 2nd/3rd best centres of all time - they’re honestly incredibly unlucky that the top 10-15 of NBA players is so heavily center dominated. They are in 90% of lists I’ve seen of top 10 players.

Please don’t compre Laver to Emerson - thats just a joke. Laver was dominant as an amateur and showed out in the pro tours (sadly a lot of people don’t know much about these and probably haven’t even heard of Pancho) and then again in the open era. I don’t have him as the GOAT but he most certainly belongs in the conversation.

In 20 years are we going to start saying Gretzky and Jordan aren’t GOATs and just products of their eras?

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

I mean, I personally have Russell and Wilt as 2nd/3rd best centres of all time - they’re honestly incredibly unlucky that the top 10-15 of NBA players is so heavily center dominated. They are in 90% of lists I’ve seen of top 10 players.

Please don’t compre Laver to Emerson - thats just a joke. Laver was dominant as an amateur and showed out in the pro tours (sadly a lot of people don’t know much about these and probably haven’t even heard of Pancho) and then again in the open era. I don’t have him as the GOAT but he most certainly belongs in the conversation.

In 20 years are we going to start saying Gretzky and Jordan aren’t GOATs and just products of their eras?

Jordan isn’t GOAT anyway,happened to come at right time compared to Wilt.Though a great player regardless.

Glad that you included Pancho.One of my favorites, totally forgotten by so many sadly.

 

[trundler]

It certainly is odd to use Hobbs' getting out purposefully upon reaching 100 to give others a go against him. I think that is a true story by the way for county cricket, probably mostly pre-war.

This used to happen against Bangladesh in the 00s too. Atapattu and Jayawardene both retired out in the same innings against Bangladesh once. I don't think Hobbs would've done this in the Ashes. If it was a thing in county cricket then meh. Even today teams do all sorts of things that wouldn't happen in tests, like Australia A's declaration against NZ A. The fastest ton in FC cricket isn't counted in official records because the bowlers were trying to make a game out of an unloseable match. This happened in the 70s I think.

 

[the big bambino]

That's true. Cricket, alone of all sports peaked in the 1980s.

It certainly is odd to use Hobbs' getting out purposefully upon reaching 100 to give others a go against him. I think that is a true story by the way for county cricket, probably mostly pre-war.

I mean I've heard of such things but I don't think it was a regular thing. Hobbs was employed by his county and was a major drawcard. Not sure the committee would've been too pleased with him being generous at their expense.

 

[kyear2]

Russell and Wilt's names definitely come up in GOAT conversations.

Don't want to get too far off track, but they aren't. They are still in top 10's but the GOAT debate is primarily between 3 players right now.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Don't want to get too far off track, but they aren't. They are still in top 10's but the GOAT debate is primarily between 3 players right now.

Wilt surely does.