The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Coronis]

See this is the problem. I’m saying Smith still has a chance to change his legacy as his career isn’t over. What I’m seeing all you guys say is “nope he can’t change it now no matter what he does”. (note: I’m not saying what he will or won’t do, just that it is possible for him to improve on his legacy depending on his future performance - no matter how likely or unlikely it is - its not set in stone quite yet)

In the last 4 years (post-2019 Ashes), Steve Smith has averaged 46.01 in 34 Tests. So aged 30-34, he has been a bit below world class but still very good. And thus if he were to somehow continue till say age 38+ (full 4 year cycle), there is every chance that he'd end up below 54/55 career average, after playing 140 tests.


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Since when is averaging 46 below world class? What is world class for you? Just curious.

 

[Line and Length]

See this is the problem. I’m saying Smith still has a chance to change his legacy as his career isn’t over. What I’m seeing all you guys say is “nope he can’t change it now no matter what he does”. (note: I’m not saying what he will or won’t do, just that it is possible for him to improve on his legacy depending on his future performance - no matter how likely or unlikely it is - its not set in stone quite yet)



Since when is averaging 46 below world class? What is world class for you? Just curious.

Fair point. I would sat averaging 46 or below is below ATG but still world class.

 

[kyear2]

See this is the problem. I’m saying Smith still has a chance to change his legacy as his career isn’t over. What I’m seeing all you guys say is “nope he can’t change it now no matter what he does”. (note: I’m not saying what he will or won’t do, just that it is possible for him to improve on his legacy depending on his future performance - no matter how likely or unlikely it is - its not set in stone quite yet)



Since when is averaging 46 below world class? What is world class for you? Just curious.

And all 8m saying is that he's about 80% into his career, even if he tanks or explodes he's where he's going to be.

Tbh all these conversations make me believe is that we severely underrate Ponting.

 

[centurymaker]

See this is the problem. I’m saying Smith still has a chance to change his legacy as his career isn’t over. What I’m seeing all you guys say is “nope he can’t change it now no matter what he does”. (note: I’m not saying what he will or won’t do, just that it is possible for him to improve on his legacy depending on his future performance - no matter how likely or unlikely it is - its not set in stone quite yet)

Since when is averaging 46 below world class? What is world class for you? Just curious.

We have a different definition of world class. 46 is definitely great at international level. I would say performing at a world class level, as a specialist batter, is when you are averaging a little closer to 50 or above.

 

[Slifer]

Smith for me, regardless of whatever he does from here on out is a bona-fide atg. At their respective peaks no one (or at least not many) was better for longer imo and he was so far ahead of the rest that it defied belief.

 

[Coronis]

And all 8m saying is that he's about 80% into his career, even if he tanks or explodes he's where he's going to be.

Tbh all these conversations make me believe is that we severely underrate Ponting.

And all I’m saying is he still has the ability (no matter how unlikely it actually is) to seperate himself from the pack if he has say a short term end of career peak - say akin to Viv’s peak for a couple of years. i.e his ranking isn’t set in stone and its still possible for this to change.

Also I know his record is home-heavy but I feel Williamson is never getting his credit - everyone’s only talking about Root these days but Williamson has been in amazing form. If only NZ were getting more tests.

 

[Victor Ian]

We have a different definition of world class. 46 is definitely great at international level. I would say performing at a world class level, as a specialist batter, is when you are averaging a little closer to 50 or above.



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sneaky. why sep 2019? because it wipes off 3 smith centuries instead of aug 1 2019 and doesnt make your point?

nb: always look into the stats when posted as a picture instead of a link. theys hidin sumfin.

 

[Victor Ian]

so many guys wigh seriously good avegages there, being this is meant to be the very hard to bat era

 

[kyear2]

Smith for me, regardless of whatever he does from here on out is a bona-fide atg. At their respective peaks no one (or at least not many) was better for longer imo and he was so far ahead of the rest that it defied belief.

Hence why he's an undisputed member of the best after Bradman club.

What else can he achieve, be unarguably the sole owner of that title? I don't see that as a likely possiblity

 

[centurymaker]

And all 8m saying is that he's about 80% into his career, even if he tanks or explodes he's where he's going to be.

Tbh all these conversations make me believe is that we severely underrate Ponting.

If Steve Smith plays another 4 years and he averages 45 (..in say 38 Tests and dismissed 60 times)

60 innings @45 = 2700 + 9320 = 12,020 / 219
Career average after 140 Tests = 54.89


Ponting after 140 Tests also averaged 55

 

[TheJediBrah]

I think a 40/60 home away split isn't better than 60/40 home away split as it leads to essentially the same output overall. I don't think Smith was better at all and think the difference between them comes down to personal preference.

Important point. You play half your games in home conditions. Being good in home conditions is at least equally important as away, even if it's 1 country v ~ 9 countries

 

[centurymaker]

sneaky. why sep 2019? because it wipes off 3 smith centuries instead of aug 1 2019 and doesnt make your point?

nb: always look into the stats when posted as a picture instead of a link. theys hidin sumfin.

I am looking at a full 4 year cycle here for S Smith. He is the reference (plus him doing beyond awesome in mid 2019 doesn't tell us anything about his levels right now or recently). He has completed his cycle, it makes no sense to include Ashes twice.

And before you accuse me, nobody is playing another test match till December, so I can post it again in October-November if you like! Then it will seem fair?

 

[centurymaker]

In fact, here it is for you for November 2023 (looking back 4 years). Hardly anything has changed in this stat in the future.





since you think having a link changes anything, here you go-

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[kyear2]

If Steve Smith plays another 4 years and he averages 45 (..in say 38 Tests and dismissed 60 times)

60 innings @45 = 2700 + 9320 = 12,020 / 219
Career average after 140 Tests = 54.89


Ponting after 140 Tests also averaged 55

View attachment 36855

And as I said in a subsequent post, this also makes me believe that Ponting might be a bit under rated and we punish him a bit harshly for his end of career decline

 

[Victor Ian]

I am looking at a full 4 year cycle here for S Smith. He is the reference (plus him doing beyond awesome in mid 2019 doesn't tell us anything about his levels right now or recently). He has completed his cycle, it makes no sense to include Ashes twice.

And before you accuse me, nobody is playing another test match till December, so I can post it again in October-November if you like! Then it will seem fair?

It's all good. I was just having a tease. As long as you push the 'ponting was terribly underated' angle you can bring down anyone.

 

[ataraxia]

Important point. You play half your games in home conditions. Being good in home conditions is at least equally important as away, even if it's 1 country v ~ 9 countries

This is where the whole concept breaks down. What are we selecting for? I suppose each country's AT XI plays half their games at home, but the World XI spread its games fairly equally?

In terms of arguing about the sheer goodness of players, I reckon away performances matter a lot more; an Amarnath would probably perform better playing for any other country and a Warner worse. So their ranking differ from what their raw stats might suggest.

 

[trundler]

This is where the whole concept breaks down. What are we selecting for? I suppose each country's AT XI plays half their games at home, but the World XI spread its games fairly equally?

In terms of arguing about the sheer goodness of players, I reckon away performances matter a lot more; an Amarnath would probably perform better playing for any other country and a Warner worse. So their ranking differ from what their raw stats might suggest.

I mean, even in that case I'm taking Hayden in Australia and India and Smith in England and NZ with everywhere else being a wash. I'm convinced Hayden would be better in SA too based on his technique and the fact that he was gun in the one series he played there in the 00s. His record is swayed by getting pwned by Donald when he was half the player. The only comparable thing Smith faced was Johnson in '14 and it retired him. Smith not at his best too obvs. I trust Haydo's technique more there, though you can discuss this as a hunch.

 

[centurymaker]

It's all good. I was just having a tease. As long as you push the 'ponting was terribly underated' angle you can bring down anyone.

He went from being rated as on par with Tendulkar and Lara to being clear-cut inferior as if not even on a similar level. That just doesn't add up tbh.

People are just to shallow. They look at final average and judge without consideration for retirement age, no. of tests played, overall record, batting technique and the impact the player had. Ponting's impact on opposition was second to none. He was a scary batsman to bowl to coming in at No.3. You knew he was gonna take the entire game away!

With Smith I don't like his technique of completely covering/hogging the stumps, it's heavily reliant on having excellent eyes and hand and eye coordination. It's against all textbook batting advice tbh. With age, it will show up more like against Mark Wood but I highly doubt he will hang around till 38+ for us to see sustained drastc decline.

 

[centurymaker]

There was a stat that said over his entire career Steve Smith has averaged exactly 30 runs per wicket against deliveries at 144+ Kmph, while averaging 60 against deliveries 125-144 Kmph.

I am not sure if the difference is as stark for other batsmen. Anyway to find out?

 

[kyear2]

He went from being rated as on par with Tendulkar and Lara to being clear-cut inferior as if not even on a similar level. That just doesn't add up tbh.

People are just to shallow. They look at final average and judge without consideration for retirement age, no. of tests played, overall record, batting technique and the impact the player had. Ponting's impact on opposition was second to none. He was a scary batsman to bowl to coming in at No.3. You knew he was gonna take the entire game away!

With Smith I don't like his technique of completely covering/hogging the stumps, it's heavily reliant on having excellent eyes and hand and eye coordination. It's against all textbook batting advice tbh. With age, it will show up more like against Mark Wood but I highly doubt he will hang around till 38+ for us to see sustained drastc decline.

Exactly

At one point he was even seen as being more dominant than both and then because of his slump he was almost discarded from the conversation.

With regards to Smith and his technique, I maintain Lara's the best I've seen so wouldn't even go there, but agree that it's more prone to let him down as his eyes and reflexes diminish.