Bazball final verdict

[Spark]

India is mostly just quite good for aggressive strokemakers right? I can think of lots of attacking batsmen who have done well there.

Maybe it’ll go badly because India is a hard place to tour, but if they do fail I don’t think it’ll be because of Bazball. Most likely failure mode is that they just aren’t good enough against spin to handle Ashwin and Jadeja in those conditions.

I can't really think of any aggressive batsmen who have done well touring India in the last five years ago but to be fair there haven't been many touring batsmen who have done well in India full stop.

EDIT: In the last five years, of the touring bats who have batted at least 5 innings in India, the only one averaging 40+ and a SR over 60 is Travis Head who was good, but hardly amazing. But there are only like sixfive batsmen who have toured India, batted a decent number of times and are averaging 40+ so it's a puny sample size. However all the others played batted pretty modestly as far as aggression goes - Khawaja, Elgar, Labuschagne and Root (who IIRC didn't exactly go out and smash it all over in 2021)

 

[Andy19]

If other teams start doing Bazball England will struggle a lot.

Don't get me wrong Bazball is great for test cricket very Entertaining wish Australia played Bazball.

But England are not great Team or even close to it Australia and India are better overall teams in my opinion.

 

[sledger]

Better teams who can't beat England

 

[shortpitched713]

Add over rate issues to the list of problems with Bazball, as England are implementing it.

Also Bazball sounds like baseball, teehee, I'm probably the first one to make that connection.

 

[Daemon]

^If Ashes was 2 match series Australia win 2-0. point being both India and Australia would beaten England multiple times if the series was short like New Zealand.

Fantastic point, one for the moral victory thread

 

[Daemon]

Won't work against Wagner on day 5 at the Basin and it didn't.

Nobody said this lol

 

[Fuller Pilch]

But England are not great Team or even close to it Australia and India are better overall teams in my opinion.

Hence why I said they are punching above their weight.
On paper England has a worse top 6 than NZ and Pakistan, and a worse bowling attack than South Africa.

Yet they have gone from getting thrashed by the Windies to beating those 3 aforementioned teams and well as succeeding in a monster chase against India and dominating Australia.

 

[OverratedSanity]

India is mostly just quite good for aggressive strokemakers right? I can think of lots of attacking batsmen who have done well there.

Depends on the pitches as I said. Lots of overseas bats really struggle on traditional low and slow pitches even more than they do on real rank turners (because those usually have some zip off the surface) because they don't get full value for their shots and get frustrated. I think it's why guys like Gilchrist and Pietersen were very rocks or diamonds here with some big scores on turners but a string of low scores on slower decks. A majority of the players who've had huge tours here (Cook, Amla, Flower for example) were those who could occupy the crease with a mostly sedate rate of scoring. Then again, Sehwag dominated on slow pitches so

I'm both fascinated and worried to see what this England team can do.

 

[subshakerz]

BazBall is awesome.

 

[Ali TT]

This thread is wild.

Amazing we can have a final verdict on something that's still happening on the basis of things that haven't happened yet.

 

[Salamuddin]

this. India will know that while bazball will challenge indias bowlers there is runs to be made against this England bowling lineup. Lyon, Murphy and kuhnemann are better than any troika England can come up with,

India will also be match hardened Having come off a tough tour to South Africa. England wouldn’t have played a test forsix months.

England will be competitivebut I’ll be amazed if they end India 11 year unbeaten home record.

 

[wpdavid]

I don't think there's much evidence that we'd have done better in this summer's ashes taking a more traditional approach to the game. Probably the one exception is our first innings at Lord's, which effectively cost us the match. But the wins at Headingley and The Oval owed much to the current approach. The other irritants (dropped catches, too many extras, and even picking a weaker keeper but better batsman) weren't really due to 'Bazball' anyway. And I do think there's evidence that, despite the silly public pronouncements in the early part of the series, they learnt fron their mistakes and tweaked their approach. Brook virtually said as much in one interview ('sometimes I've been too aggressive ..'), and the team as a whole didn't repeat the first innings at Lord's fiasco.

 

[honestbharani]

I don't think there's much evidence that we'd have done better in this summer's ashes taking a more traditional approach to the game. Probably the one exception is our first innings at Lord's, which effectively cost us the match. But the wins at Headingley and The Oval owed much to the current approach. The other irritants (dropped catches, too many extras, and even picking a weaker keeper but better batsman) weren't really due to 'Bazball' anyway. And I do think there's evidence that, despite the silly public pronouncements in the early part of the series, they learnt fron their mistakes and tweaked their approach. Brook virtually said as much in one interview ('sometimes I've been too aggressive ..'), and the team as a whole didn't repeat the first innings at Lord's fiasco.

I think Bazball was always grounded in some common sense when it started but I think they just dialled it up to 11 due to the Ashes or Baz's history with Oz or whatever. The moment they started playing like the side they were before this Ashes, things just looked so much better.

 

[Owzat]

If it's not *****Official*****, it don't count

and until it is no longer labelled bazballs it isn't exactly time for a 'final verdict'

it is an approach can paper over the cracks ie England batting normally can end up 50/4 same as they can whacking it around, it has paid some dividends but are big flaws in it even when it appears to come off - bowlers get less of a rest between bowls and despite the theoretical question Zaltzman posed it can have limited 'range' ie hasn't exactly produced match winning totals on a regular or even semi-regular basis

and I think it gets bandied about a fair bit more than applies, when Bairstow, Stokes and won matches against the kiwis it wasn't bazball so much as two batsmen cranking it up each match

vs NZL 2022
1st Test 1st inns - England scored at 3.29 rpo overall, NONE of the top order had an SR of more than 77
1st Test 2nd inns - Root guided England home, SR 67.65, only bazballian on show was Bairstow with 16 off 15 balls

most of that 1st Test won by normal cricket, Root with support from Stokes saving England from 69/4


2nd Test 1st inns - England scored at 4.20 rpo overall, Root did score a bit quicker than normal at over 80 SR, as Stokes did in a cameo, but most batted at a mundane rate
2nd Test 2nd inns - England were 93/4, Bairstow instead of trying to prod and poke his way to victory took the ball on with him and Stokes scoring at over 100 SR, but as a team there was little evidence of this 5rpo and above 'approach'

3rd Test 1st inns - Bairstow attacked from 55/6, 162 off 157 balls, Overton scored at around 70 SR, Broad a cameo at over 100 SR, but most disappeared in a hole
3rd Test 2nd inns - pretty much a bog standard chase until Bairstow upped the tempo with 71no off 44 balls,


Some signs the innings tempo was beginning to increase, but not significantly above what you'd get normally ie from maybe 3.0 to 4.0 give or take with maybe 2-3 batsmen per innings actually batting with aggressive intent, although granted if someone gets out for 8 off 11 balls you can't say they wouldn't have gone on but there was still some balance. Now it is openers blasting away, plenty though still batting at a more regulation 4rpo which is an SR of 83.33 compared to 3rpo being SR 50.00 obviously and 3.6rpo which is not what many would label bazballs speed being 60 SR

oh and to reinforce the point, 2nd innings of the 1st Ashes Test England scored at a more mundane 4.12rpo, near a full run an over below 1st innings, 4.26 and 4.01 in 2nd Test. Is just a way of papering over cracks, it can scare some sides into panic and is a decent tactic for avoiding 4 slips and a gully all the time and plodding along at 3.0 rpo waiting to be got out by a good ball, people talk of balls that are 'unplayable' but I've long felt it isn't true, only 'unplayable' if you play conventionally against it ie inswinging yorker turned into a full toss by advancing down the pitch to meet it, playable....

 

[Ali TT]

and until it is no longer labelled bazballs it isn't exactly time for a 'final verdict'

it is an approach can paper over the cracks ie England batting normally can end up 50/4 same as they can whacking it around, it has paid some dividends but are big flaws in it even when it appears to come off - bowlers get less of a rest between bowls and despite the theoretical question Zaltzman posed it can have limited 'range' ie hasn't exactly produced match winning totals on a regular or even semi-regular basis

and I think it gets bandied about a fair bit more than applies, when Bairstow, Stokes and won matches against the kiwis it wasn't bazball so much as two batsmen cranking it up each match

vs NZL 2022
1st Test 1st inns - England scored at 3.29 rpo overall, NONE of the top order had an SR of more than 77
1st Test 2nd inns - Root guided England home, SR 67.65, only bazballian on show was Bairstow with 16 off 15 balls

most of that 1st Test won by normal cricket, Root with support from Stokes saving England from 69/4


2nd Test 1st inns - England scored at 4.20 rpo overall, Root did score a bit quicker than normal at over 80 SR, as Stokes did in a cameo, but most batted at a mundane rate
2nd Test 2nd inns - England were 93/4, Bairstow instead of trying to prod and poke his way to victory took the ball on with him and Stokes scoring at over 100 SR, but as a team there was little evidence of this 5rpo and above 'approach'

3rd Test 1st inns - Bairstow attacked from 55/6, 162 off 157 balls, Overton scored at around 70 SR, Broad a cameo at over 100 SR, but most disappeared in a hole
3rd Test 2nd inns - pretty much a bog standard chase until Bairstow upped the tempo with 71no off 44 balls,


Some signs the innings tempo was beginning to increase, but not significantly above what you'd get normally ie from maybe 3.0 to 4.0 give or take with maybe 2-3 batsmen per innings actually batting with aggressive intent, although granted if someone gets out for 8 off 11 balls you can't say they wouldn't have gone on but there was still some balance. Now it is openers blasting away, plenty though still batting at a more regulation 4rpo which is an SR of 83.33 compared to 3rpo being SR 50.00 obviously and 3.6rpo which is not what many would label bazballs speed being 60 SR

oh and to reinforce the point, 2nd innings of the 1st Ashes Test England scored at a more mundane 4.12rpo, near a full run an over below 1st innings, 4.26 and 4.01 in 2nd Test. Is just a way of papering over cracks, it can scare some sides into panic and is a decent tactic for avoiding 4 slips and a gully all the time and plodding along at 3.0 rpo waiting to be got out by a good ball, people talk of balls that are 'unplayable' but I've long felt it isn't true, only 'unplayable' if you play conventionally against it ie inswinging yorker turned into a full toss by advancing down the pitch to meet it, playable....

It's not just about run rate but willingness to counterattack even in a bad situation, such as the ones you've highlighted, to be forgiven if it goes wrong and be given license to do the same the next time. Of course it won't work every time but then neither does playing "normal" test cricket.

 

[Charger Salmons]

In a year's time everyone will be playing bazball.

 

[Anil]

I think one thing this series has established is that England does Bazball very well!. How would other teams fare if they attempted this? Who would do well and who would be a hot mess?

 

[ataraxia]

I think one thing this series has established is that England does Bazball very well!. How would other teams fare if they attempted this? Who would do well and who would be a hot mess?

Really? Surely this series detracts from the perceived effectiveness of #bazball?

 

[Adders]

Really? Surely this series detracts from the perceived effectiveness of #bazball?

This series possibly highlighted some of its weaknesses, but I don't think for a second that Roots Eng was drawing against this Aussie side......much less walking away feeling like they really could have won it. Still net success for mine but of course it's far from full proof.

 

[ataraxia]

This series possibly highlighted some of its weaknesses, but I don't think for a second that Roots Eng was drawing against this Aussie side......much less walking away feeling like they really could have won it. Still net success for mine but of course it's far from full proof.

Yes, but that's not the question.

pre-Ashes bazball >> Ashes bazball >>> pre-Bazball