Kevin Pietersen vs VVS Laxman

[Coronis]

Funny, I don’t really hear Sobers 5/6 being brought up vs Tendulkar (4) much (if at all), only when it comes to an opener like Hobbs.

 

[trundler]

Laxman was a 5/6,, not a 5. If he was just a 5 then it would be a minor difference. I do the latter but KP batting higher is still valid since Laxman batting 5/6 is a high proportion of his career. I don't consider longer career in years to be a factor compared to games.

4 to 5-6 is a much lesser jump than 1-3 to 4. VVS also played a lot more at 3 and did well enough. Counting games over years is to over rate English players who get to play a lot more per year. Sustaining the same level for a longer time period is much harder. KP directly benefits from playing exclusively in his peak. You seem to ignore all nuance around career length. This ends up rewarding players who got picked/dropped at the right time over those who had longer careers even if they weren't actually better. Having a shorter career isn't a skill.

 

[trundler]

Funny, I don’t really hear Sobers 5/6 being brought up vs Tendulkar (4) much (if at all), only when it comes to an opener like Hobbs.

Subs doesn't think it matters all that much when comparing Kallis and Waugh either. Retrofitting criticism.

 

[CricAddict]

I voted for KP because I like him more than VVS. But the thought that he batted low and so is bad is quite poor. Laxman had always liked to bat at 3 and was not able to do so only due to the presence of a certain wall there. Cannot be penalizing him for that.

 

[BazBall21]

Years played is a better metric than games played. There might be something in the theory that England players tend to retire earlier because they play so many tests, but overall comparing by games played doesn't work.

 

[GIMH]

Sustaining the same level for a longer time period is much harder.

This is way too simplistic. Playing 15 games a year versus 8 (for example) puts a greater toll on the body and makes a quicker decline therefore more likely.

Which is what makes James Anderson so amazing btw

 

[trundler]

This is way too simplistic. Playing 15 games a year versus 8 (for example) puts a greater toll on the body and makes a quicker decline therefore more likely.

Which is what makes James Anderson so amazing btw

Bowlers sure. Batsmen, I don't think so.

 

[number11]

This is one of those threads where CW is clearly on their own planet because I don't think there would be a captain alive would take Laxman over KP in their team, unless it is for off field reasons.

Exactly my logic. KP was a different level.

 

[GIMH]

Bowlers sure. Batsmen, I don't think so.

Yeah it’s a bigger factor for bowlers, but even aside from the physical aspects of batting, the mental fatigue plays a part too. I wouldn’t discount it personally, though would agree as I say that the weight of it is heavier with fast bowlers.

 

[ZK$]

I think years should be used over games, but I also think players shouldn’t get longevity points if they’re missing games. Laxman had effectively a 12.5 year career (which is still four years longer than Pietersen’s career tbf).

 

[anil1405]

Exactly my logic. KP was a different level.

There are a couple of dozen batters better than KP for the no.4 spot whereas a handful, at best, better than VVS at no.5 or 6.

Easy to say that VVS will be picked ahead of KP in the team by many skippers.

 

[GIMH]

Am in two minds on the KP longevity point. Though some signs of decline were there, he was only a year removed from some of his best innings (Mumbai and Headingley) when the axe fell. So with plenty of players you could almost say, it was the selectors’ fault. But, you know, it was his fault that he was dropped so hard to use it in his defence, even if for non-playing reasons.

Don’t think he’d have on to 2017 anyway, so doubt he would have matched Laxman for longevity.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

No captain would want a guy who would tell about his teammate weakness to their opponents in his team. So VVS is an easy pick.

 

[subshakerz]

So English players are inherently better cos they can spam more tests during their peaks?

Depends what they do in those tests. Cricket is unfair.

 

[subshakerz]

4 to 5-6 is a much lesser jump than 1-3 to 4. VVS also played a lot more at 3 and did well enough. Counting games over years is to over rate English players who get to play a lot more per year. Sustaining the same level for a longer time period is much harder. KP directly benefits from playing exclusively in his peak. You seem to ignore all nuance around career length. This ends up rewarding players who got picked/dropped at the right time over those who had longer careers even if they weren't actually better. Having a shorter career isn't a skill.

I am a realist. Unless it is injury or maybe too young too soon, I count the record.

 

[trundler]

I am a realist. Unless it is injury or maybe too young too soon, I count the record.

You don't dig beyond surface level averages and hype.

 

[subshakerz]

Exactly my logic. KP was a different level.

KP was like a Sehwag in that he could win you a game in a session. Any captain would jump at such a player in their team. It's quite obvious to me he is beyond Laxman.

 

[subshakerz]

You don't dig beyond surface level averages and hype.

I do it all the time. But I don't ignore what other players say about a player.

 

[subshakerz]

Years played is a better metric than games played. There might be something in the theory that England players tend to retire earlier because they play so many tests, but overall comparing by games played doesn't work.

At the end of the day, what you do on the field matters and whether you do that in a bunch of tests cramped together or spread out twice as long, it will be judged more or less equally by me since those are the same days you spend on the field. Mitigating issues like playing in your peak are part of the inherent imbalance of the game.

 

[subshakerz]

Subs doesn't think it matters all that much when comparing Kallis and Waugh either. Retrofitting criticism.

I gave that as a point for Kallis over Waugh.