The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Coronis]

Yeah, I got your point, I just respectfully disagree.

I believe your team is at a disadvantage by not picking him and there is a sizeable gap between him and the others. He has McGrath's control, Imran's swing, Steyn's aggression and Holding's pace. He was as comfortable in India as he was in Australia and England and was equally masterful home and away. His highest average vs any country was 22, he never leaked runs, never being dominated by any batsman, had a brilliant strike rate, and the average was immense. No one ticked all the boxes he did.

And even if you don't believe he was by far and away the best, he's still a lock to make every team because he not outside anyone's top 3, could bat and no one is or was similar to him or brought what he did to the table.

While yes, the majority would put Marshall in the top 3 (there are of course many who wouldn’t), I think you’re very much overstating the gap between him and the other great pace bowlers.

 

[peterhrt]

Some All-Time World XIs from the past.

1919 [Pelham Warner and Frank Iredale. Each picked own team]: Grace, Trumper, Ranjitsinhji, Hill, Hobbs or Jackson, Noble*, Woolley or Peel, Lockwood or Richardson, Blackham+, Barnes or Lohmann, Spofforth.

1950 [Neville Cardus 1900-50]: Hobbs, Trumper, Bradman, Macartney, Jackson*, Faulkner, Miller, Rhodes, Oldfield+, Larwood, Barnes.

1979 [Cricket Society members]: Hobbs, Grace, Bradman, Hammond, Trumper, Sobers, Rhodes, Lindwall, Oldfield+, Barnes, O'Reilly.

2009 [Cricinfo. 12-man panel of eight former Test captains and four cricket historians]: Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Tendulkar, Viv Richards, Sobers, Gilchrist+, Wasim Akram, Marshall, Warne, Lillee. Only Bradman, Sobers and Warne were unanimous choices.

2nd XI: Gavaskar, Barry Richards, Headley, Lara, Hammond, Imran Khan, Knott+, Trueman, Muralitharan, Barnes, O'Reilly.

2013 [Wisden]: Hobbs, Grace, Bradman*, Tendulkar, Viv Richards, Sobers, Knott+, Wasim Akram, Marshall, Warne, Barnes.

 

[kyear2]

And finally my current ATXI (for today)

One I would select to actually take the field to defend Earth

Sir Leonard Hutton *
Robert Simpson ^(6)
Sir Donald Bradman
Sir. I.V.A. Richards ^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers ^(5)
Adam Gilchrist +
Sir Richard Hadlee (2)
Malcom Marshall (1)
Dale Steyn (3)
Muttiah Muralitharan (4)

Hutton for me is the greatest opener of all time and played in a much more modern era and faced immeasurably better bowlers than Hobbs and Sutcliffe. Before the war he broke Bradman's record facing O'Reilly with Bradman himself in the field. He also somehow managed to flourish post war and his horrific injury. Faced elite pace and spin unlike anyone else of that era.

Simpson averaged over 50 as an opener, was an exceptionally elite slip fielder and more than handy leg spin bowler. His record as an opener is criminally underrated and over looked and with this bowling attack I want the absolute best in the cordon without loosing too much if anything with the bat. His leg spin also allows me to minimize Sober's potential work load. Gavaskar or Richards were the closest ones considered but Simpson is the better all round package for me.

Bradman, greatest batsman ever and lynchpin of the order.

Richards peak and his destructive ability was fast bowling was insane. I want someone with the ability to take the game away and nestled between Bradman and Tendulkar he is has free reign to do just that. He intimidated bowlers as much as they intimidated others and can change any game in a session. He was outstanding in the field and was a tremendous leader of men.

Sachin had the perfect temperament and technique and an unquenchable thirst for runs. His sustained brilliance and totality of his records makes him an automatic for me in any batting lineup.

Sobers is arguably the 2nd best batsman of all time, the greatest all rounder ever, an exceptionally elite slip fielder and fielder in general. He's possibly the only credible challenger to Bradman as the greatest cricketer of all time, if not the greatest.

Gilchrist changed and revolutionized the position. A great if potentially not elite wicket keeper, his batting is what permanently changed expectations for the position in general. There's no argument for his spot in this team.

Hadlee makes it over McGrath because of his batting. They were similarly metronomic and able to diminish batting line ups. I rate McGrath as the second best of all time, but Paddles is at worst 2 spots behind and substantially better with the bat, allowing him to hold down the crucial no. 8 position.

Steyn gives that x factor, he could work magic with the new and especially the old ball. additionally wanted that sustained aggression when Marshall wasn't in the attack. Selected him over Wasim because I believe he's the better bowler, though Wasim's variety and batting were tempting.

Muralitharan over Warne was similarly difficult, but with Simpson offering some leggies in support and also taking up Warne's place in the cordon, Warne was expendable. Murali and Warne as bowlers are neck and neck, but with some SC experience needed in the attack and being the better out fielder pushed Murali over the edge.

Pretty sure no one will agree, but that's mine. Almost talked myself into Wasim over Steyn, but Wasim isn't in my absolute elite top 5, and not sure if the variety would make up for it, and also wanted someone from the modern era.

 

[kyear2]

While yes, the majority would put Marshall in the top 3 (there are of course many who wouldn’t), I think you’re very much overstating the gap between him and the other great pace bowlers.

As I said, we can agree to disagree.

Similarly, there are still some, and even as evidenced on the Wisden team that would choose a pure stumper over Gilly, be it Knott, Talon, Oldfield etc. Still I include Gilly, because at the end of the day, he's going to make most every team and in the end result a mostly consensus selection and one of the four locks who makes every team. So no, neither is Sobers or Bradman, but they will make the team. Hence my point.

 

[Prince EWS]

I’m not adverse to him lol, i just don’t rate him as part of that very top behind Bradman group. I’m more preferential to long term consistency rather than a shorter insane peak.

On the other hand, I am adverse to him.

 

[Slifer]

While yes, the majority would put Marshall in the top 3 (there are of course many who wouldn’t), I think you’re very much overstating the gap between him and the other great pace bowlers.

I want to see the "many" who wouldn't have Maco in the top 3. And I want to see who the the 3 ahead of him are and why.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah, I got your point, I just respectfully disagree.

I believe your team is at a disadvantage by not picking him and there is a sizeable gap between him and the others. He has McGrath's control, Imran's swing, Steyn's aggression and Holding's pace. He was as comfortable in India as he was in Australia and England and was equally masterful home and away. His highest average vs any country was 22, he never leaked runs, never being dominated by any batsman, had a brilliant strike rate, and the average was immense. No one ticked all the boxes he did.

And even if you don't believe he was by far and away the best, he's still a lock to make every team because he not outside anyone's top 3, could bat and no one is or was similar to him or brought what he did to the table.

I certainly agree with you that Marshall is basically a consensus pick with 90%+ of people here picking him, but I'd say the same of McGrath. Obviously hard for you to call someone a consensus pick when they aren't even in your own eleven, but all the same I think it's just as rare to leave McGrath out as it is to leave Marshall out.

 

[kyear2]

I certainly agree with you that Marshall is basically a consensus pick with 90%+ of people here picking him, but I'd say the same of McGrath. Obviously hard for you to call someone a consensus pick when they aren't even in your own eleven, but all the same I think it's just as rare to leave McGrath out as it is to leave Marshall out.

Ironically it's you guys that convinced me to leave out McGrath for Hadlee etc. Bat deep and all that,

McGrath to me is undoubted no 2 all time, but if I replace Hadlee with McGrath that forces in with Imran or Wasim at 8 . Slightly then weaker overall, but that's just my judgement.
Also pretty sure I included them both in the general consensus XI.

 

[Bolo.]

While yes, the majority would put Marshall in the top 3 (there are of course many who wouldn’t), I think you’re very much overstating the gap between him and the other great pace bowlers.

I don't think there is much of a gap between him and the other quicks*, but just about everyone still picks him.

-Almost everyone puts him in the top 3 quicks, so people simply picking the best bowlers go for him.

-People trying to create an attack with the most variety from elite bowlers will stick him in too. He's the right arm quick most different to the other elites.

-If you are going with #batdeep he adds a fair amount of value at 10/11. Not a lot of people are committed enough to batting deep to look for more of it than this.

Combining any/all of these will make him more likely to be picked. And I can't think of another reason people would use to pick a best team.


*I think Imran and Hadlee are actually better players than him, but there is still plenty of room for him.

 

[Coronis]

I want to see the "many" who wouldn't have Maco in the top 3. And I want to see who the the 3 ahead of him are and why.

Perhaps there aren’t “many” here. Amongst the greater cricketing fanbase there are definitely many. e.g The first ever time I was introduced to an “ATG XI” with Richie Benaud’s DVD, he wasn’t even included amongst the shortlist of pacers.

I don't think there is much of a gap between him and the other quicks*, but just about everyone still picks him.

-Almost everyone puts him in the top 3 quicks, so people simply picking the best bowlers go for him.

-People trying to create an attack with the most variety from elite bowlers will stick him in too. He's the right arm quick most different to the other elites.

-If you are going with #batdeep he adds a fair amount of value at 10/11. Not a lot of people are committed enough to batting deep to look for more of it than this.

Combining any/all of these will make him more likely to be picked. And I can't think of another reason people would use to pick a best team.


*I think Imran and Hadlee are actually better players than him, but there is still plenty of room for him.

Yeah ok he probably is in most people’s top 3 (as is McGrath lets be real). I still think the term lock has different connotations and should only apply to Bradman/Sobers/Gilchrist i.e the 3 who are so far ahead of their competitors that leaving them out is considered a severe detriment and basically can’t be done.

 

[Slifer]

Perhaps there aren’t “many” here. Amongst the greater cricketing fanbase there are definitely many. e.g The first ever time I was introduced to an “ATG XI” with Richie Benaud’s DVD, he wasn’t even included amongst the shortlist of pacers.



Yeah ok he probably is in most people’s top 3 (as is McGrath lets be real). I still think the term lock has different connotations and should only apply to Bradman/Sobers/Gilchrist i.e the 3 who are so far ahead of their competitors that leaving them out is considered a severe detriment and basically can’t be done.

No secrets that Benaud didn't really like west Indian fast bowlers. He included Larwood,Lillee, Lindwall, McGrath, etc You seriously believe all of those he listed are better than all of Ambrose, Garber, Holding, Maco etc? I don't. Fwiw he also had Qadir in the short list of spinners (no Murali). And he never actually called the players he chose the best XI: "Benaud responded to the criticism that he didn't pick the best XI of all time; he just picked a XI whom he wanted to be in charge of."

 

[kyear2]

No secrets that Benaud didn't really like west Indian fast bowlers. He included Larwood,Lillee, Lindwall, McGrath, etc You seriously believe all of those he listed are better than all of Ambrose, Garber, Holding, Maco etc? I don't. Fwiw he also had Qadir in the short list of spinners (no Murali). And he never actually called the players he chose the best XI: "Benaud responded to the criticism that he didn't pick the best XI of all time; he just picked a XI whom he wanted to be in charge of."

Think the exact words he used were to "represent him"

 

[honestbharani]

Think the exact words he used were to "represent him"

That is not a great look, eh?

 

[honestbharani]

And finally my current ATXI (for today)

One I would select to actually take the field to defend Earth

Sir Leonard Hutton *
Robert Simpson ^(6)
Sir Donald Bradman
Sir. I.V.A. Richards ^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers ^(5)
Adam Gilchrist +
Sir Richard Hadlee (2)
Malcom Marshall (1)
Dale Steyn (3)
Muttiah Muralitharan (4)

Lara over Richards, for me.

And maybe a different 3rd seamer although I love Steyn. Gavaskar over one of the openers. Otherise, its the side I would go with as well.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Team To Save The Earth

Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Don Bradman*
Steve Smith
Viv Richards
Garfield Sobers (5)
Adam Gilchrist+
Imran Khan (4)
Malcolm Marshall (1)
Bill O’Reilly (3)
Glenn McGrath (2)

If I had to choose the team to save the Earth the first 4 names in my team list would be Bradman, Sobers, Marshall and O’Reilly.

The openers (Hobbs and Hutton) are locks in my team though I would give a mention to the great Herbert Sutcliffe.

Smith is the best I have ever seen and Richards had the best peak ever except Bradman.

Imran Khan gets in the team ahead of Hadlee and McGrath beats Steyn ,Ambrose for the last spot.

 

[kyear2]

Perhaps there aren’t “many” here. Amongst the greater cricketing fanbase there are definitely many. e.g The first ever time I was introduced to an “ATG XI” with Richie Benaud’s DVD, he wasn’t even included amongst the shortlist of pacers.



Yeah ok he probably is in most people’s top 3 (as is McGrath lets be real). I still think the term lock has different connotations and should only apply to Bradman/Sobers/Gilchrist i.e the 3 who are so far ahead of their competitors that leaving them out is considered a severe detriment and basically can’t be done.

And that's fine, we just see it differently.

1, I see Maco as being definitively the best but you don't see a large enough gap to make him an automatic selection, but if not, surely still being the best is good enough.

Plus you include Gilly, when even Maco makes more teams than he does.

But again, we can agree to disagree

 

[Adorable Asshole]

I certainly agree with you that Marshall is basically a consensus pick with 90%+ of people here picking him, but I'd say the same of McGrath. Obviously hard for you to call someone a consensus pick when they aren't even in your own eleven, but all the same I think it's just as rare to leave McGrath out as it is to leave Marshall out.

No we need to stack the batting.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I want to see the "many" who wouldn't have Maco in the top 3. And I want to see who the the 3 ahead of him are and why.

Hilfenhaus, Dirk Nannes and Clint McKay

 

[Prince EWS]

No we need to stack the batting.

Garner?

 

[Coronis]

And that's fine, we just see it differently.

1, I see Maco as being definitively the best but you don't see a large enough gap to make him an automatic selection, but if not, surely still being the best is good enough.

Plus you include Gilly, when even Maco makes more teams than he does.

But again, we can agree to disagree

Since when?