The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[h_hurricane]

Barry Richards was just a poor version of Yashasvi Jaiswal.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Barry Richards was just a poor version of Yashasvi Jaiswal.

He couldn’t even sell pani puri?

 

[h_hurricane]

He couldn’t even sell pani puri?

He would have made more money by selling that instead of what he made in his 4 test career. Some fancy name like "Barry puri" would have helped.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Barry over Gavaskar, barry’s flamboyance is better to have than Gavsakar’s grit.

Barry would be in my general ATG 2nd Xi to open with Sutcliffe after Hobbs/Hutton and has good case to open with Hobbs.But doesn’t deserve any consideration when it’s about test Xi.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

steyn over marshall, marshall was still comparable to other bowlers and his own peers, steyn? Left everyone in his era in the dust

Steyn was great and has a case to be in the team but Marshall is the GOAT by half a league.Also could bat a bit.

 

[kyear2]

Welcome back @kyear2 and thank you for the dozens of likes catching up.

Thank you, there was a 14 page span there where everything seemingly went to hell. But otherwise glad to be back.
I see Coronis still has his Sutcliffe fetish and just as adverse to sir I.V.A. Richards

 

[kyear2]

Lots of interesting topics over the past year, that I'll love to go back and revisit.

There was a Bradman discussion that was quite divisive, but some good points were made and another less contentious one about how close can we get to a consensus XI.

 

[Coronis]

Thank you, there was a 14 page span there where everything seemingly went to hell. But otherwise glad to be back.
I see Coronis still has his Sutcliffe fetish and just as adverse to sir I.V.A. Richards

I’m not adverse to him lol, i just don’t rate him as part of that very top behind Bradman group. I’m more preferential to long term consistency rather than a shorter insane peak.

Sutcliffe, honestly I have him neck and neck with Hutton, I only pick him always because he always gets picked last out of the 4 great openers and cos him and Hobbs actually played together.

Nice to see you back though mate.

 

[Coronis]

Lots of interesting topics over the past year, that I'll love to go back and revisit.

There was a Bradman discussion that was quite divisive, but some good points were made and another less contentious one about how close can we get to a consensus XI.

Yeah I doubt we’ll ever have a consensus XI, really the only 100 (or 99) % locks are going to be Bradman, Sobers and Gilly. I don’t think you lose that much amongst several of the top bowlers, openers or middle order players and it all comes down to personal preference.

For example, these two XI’s

Hobbs
Gavaskar
Bradman*
Tendulkar
Hammond
Sobers
Gilchrist+
Imran
Steyn
Murali
McGrath

vs

Sutcliffe
Hutton
Bradman*
Smith
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist+
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Ambrose

Is there really that much difference in quality between these two sides? Probably not, and there are still a few more middle order/pace bowlers who wouldn’t look outta place at all.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Yeah I doubt we’ll ever have a consensus XI, really the only 100 (or 99) % locks are going to be Bradman, Sobers and Gilly. I don’t think you lose that much amongst several of the top bowlers, openers or middle order players and it all comes down to personal preference.

For example, these two XI’s

Hobbs
Gavaskar
Bradman*
Tendulkar
Hammond
Sobers
Gilchrist+
Imran
Steyn
Murali
McGrath

vs

Sutcliffe
Hutton
Bradman*
Smith
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist+
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Ambrose

Is there really that much difference in quality between these two sides? Probably not, and there are still a few more middle order/pace bowlers who wouldn’t look outta place at all.

Kallis

 

[kyear2]

I believe there are four (4) consensus players you would see in every team

1.
2.
3. Sir Donald Bradman
4.
5.
6. Sir Garfield Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist
8.
9. Malcom Marshall
10.
11.

There after a couple of players that come awful close with one potential competitor for that spot where there's a split but a plurality. .ie Hutton, Hobbs with Gavaskar not far behind ; Warne With Murali ; Tendulkar, Richards with Smith, Lara on the periphery.

1. Hutton
2. Hobbs
3. Bradman
4. Tendulkar
5. Richards
6. Sobers
7. Gilchrist
8.
9. Marshall
10. Warne
11.

The last two bowling spots are always a toss up, McGrath tends to get the nod over Hadlee, but that also depends on who gets the number 8 spot. The other place is between Steyn, Imran, Wasim and Ambrose, but again that depends on if this spot is the bowling all rounder spot or if it's occupied by Hadlee already.
In summary though, there's nothing close to even a plurality for those last two spots. If I had to guess I would probably go with McGrath and Imran, but that's just a guess.

1. Sir. Leonard Hutton
2. Sir Jack Hobbs
3. Sir Donald Bradman
4. Sir I. V. A. Richards
5. Sachin Tendulkar
6. Sir. Garfield Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Imran Khan
9. Malcom Marshall
10. Shane Warne
11. Glen McGrath

Not my choice, but think that's what a "consensus" XI could possibly look like.

 

[Coronis]

I believe there are four (4) consensus players you would see in every team

1.
2.
3. Sir Donald Bradman
4.
5.
6. Sir Garfield Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist
8.
9. Malcom Marshall
10.
11.

There after a couple of players that come awful close with one potential competitor for that spot where there's a split but a plurality. .ie Hutton, Hobbs with Gavaskar not far behind ; Warne With Murali ; Tendulkar, Richards with Smith, Lara on the periphery.

1. Hutton
2. Hobbs
3. Bradman
4. Tendulkar
5. Richards
6. Sobers
7. Gilchrist
8.
9. Marshall
10. Warne
11.

The last two bowling spots are always a toss up, McGrath tends to get the nod over Hadlee, but that also depends on who gets the number 8 spot. The other place is between Steyn, Imran, Wasim and Ambrose, but again that depends on if this spot is the bowling all rounder spot or if it's occupied by Hadlee already.
In summary though, there's nothing close to even a plurality for those last two spots. If I had to guess I would probably go with McGrath and Imran, but that's just a guess.

1. Sir. Leonard Hutton
2. Sir Jack Hobbs
3. Sir Donald Bradman
4. Sir I. V. A. Richards
5. Sachin Tendulkar
6. Sir. Garfield Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Imran Khan
9. Malcom Marshall
10. Shane Warne
11. Glen McGrath

Not my choice, but think that's what a "consensus" XI could possibly look like.

I know you have a Marshall fetish mate but he’s definitely not a lock imo. The fact that we even have disagreements and this discussion thread imo is the very proof that there isn’t any consensus.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

I know you have a Marshall fetish mate but he’s definitely not a lock imo. The fact that we even have disagreements and this discussion thread imo is the very proof that there isn’t any consensus.

Hmm. Who's your top 3 pacers?

 

[kyear2]

I know you have a Marshall fetish mate but he’s definitely not a lock imo. The fact that we even have disagreements and this discussion thread imo is the very proof that there isn’t any consensus.

In the opinion of most, including myself he is the GOAT with no holes in his record, resume or capabilities. As an opening bowler he's the greatest winner in the history of the sport and mastered every condition he was presented.
At worst he's a consensus top two bowler (w/ McGrath),where three are selected and there's never been a credible AT XI, including all we've ever done where he wasn't included.

A few pages back, 4 locks were mentioned and he was also included among those names. So it's not just me and my "fetish" (enough of that to come shortly). He's a acknowledged top 2 bowler who can bat and excellent in the field.

He's a lock and in my opinion a top 5 player of all time.

 

[kyear2]

I know you have a Marshall fetish mate but he’s definitely not a lock imo. The fact that we even have disagreements and this discussion thread imo is the very proof that there isn’t any consensus.

Show me the disagreements with regards the Maco, I just read the last year of posts, he's in all of them.

And on top of that, he gets his pick of ends.

 

[Coronis]

In the opinion of most, including myself he is the GOAT with no holes in his record, resume or capabilities. As an opening bowler he's the greatest winner in the history of the sport and mastered every condition he was presented.
At worst he's a consensus top two bowler (w/ McGrath),where three are selected and there's never been a credible AT XI, including all we've ever done where he wasn't included.

A few pages back, 4 locks were mentioned and he was also included among those names. So it's not just me and my "fetish" (enough of that to come shortly). He's a acknowledged top 2 bowler who can bat and excellent in the field.

He's a lock and in my opinion a top 5 player of all time.

I only used fetish as a teasing reference to your post about me and Sutcliffe earlier mate.

In my opinion yes he’s the greatest pacer of all time for me, that may not be the case for others of course. A lock for me is a player that you can’t not select, i.e someone so far ahead of their competition for that spot that you’re deliberately putting your team at a disadvantage by not picking them. i.e Bradman, Sobers, Gilchrist. As I showed in a previous post you can pick a perfectly great ATG XI without Marshall and it really doesn’t lose THAT much, i.e the gap between Marshall and other pacers/Hobbs and other openers/Tendulkar and other middle order batsmen/Warne and Murali isn’t a clearly massive difference as it is with Bradman, Sobers and Gilchrist.

 

[kyear2]

As per the young man's attempts a bit earlier to find two (relatively) equally matched teams, here's north vs south

North

Hutton
Hobbs
Richards
Lara
Tendulkar
Sobers
Knott
Imran
Marshall
Ambrose
Muralitharan

South

Simpson
Richards / Smith
Bradman
Smith
Pollock
Kallis
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Warne
Steyn
McGrath


If only we could trade over a Gavaskar, both would be bullet proof.

 

[kyear2]

I only used fetish as a teasing reference to your post about me and Sutcliffe earlier mate.

In my opinion yes he’s the greatest pacer of all time for me, that may not be the case for others of course. A lock for me is a player that you can’t not select, i.e someone so far ahead of their competition for that spot that you’re deliberately putting your team at a disadvantage by not picking them. i.e Bradman, Sobers, Gilchrist. As I showed in a previous post you can pick a perfectly great ATG XI without Marshall and it really doesn’t lose THAT much, i.e the gap between Marshall and other pacers/Hobbs and other openers/Tendulkar and other middle order batsmen/Warne and Murali isn’t a clearly massive difference as it is with Bradman, Sobers and Gilchrist.

Yeah, I got your point, I just respectfully disagree.

I believe your team is at a disadvantage by not picking him and there is a sizeable gap between him and the others. He has McGrath's control, Imran's swing, Steyn's aggression and Holding's pace. He was as comfortable in India as he was in Australia and England and was equally masterful home and away. His highest average vs any country was 22, he never leaked runs, never being dominated by any batsman, had a brilliant strike rate, and the average was immense. No one ticked all the boxes he did.

And even if you don't believe he was by far and away the best, he's still a lock to make every team because he not outside anyone's top 3, could bat and no one is or was similar to him or brought what he did to the table.

 

[Coronis]

#batdeep (that Cummins innings had me thinking)

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman*
Tendulkar
Hammond
Sobers
Gilchrist+
Imran
Hadlee
Wasim
Warne

 

[trundler]

I’m not adverse to him lol, i just don’t rate him as part of that very top behind Bradman group. I’m more preferential to long term consistency rather than a shorter insane peak.

But you end up just rewarding guys with shorter careers