Why are England so much better at producing all rounders than Australia?

[Molehill]

This isn't a good reason to rate a player an ATG over another player when they might have been able to play two to three times as many scheduled Test matches in exactly the same duration of time.

For example Kane Williamson's career spans a longer period of time than Cook's. But the latter played seventy more Test matches during that time. Doesn't exactly feel fair to just go on quantity alone.

I think quantity for bowlers actually does stand up. Part of being an ATG in the case of Anderson and Broad is their ability to play so many matches. How many seamers over the years would've been utterly broken from that kind of workload? You could say that Steyn would've taken way more wickets if he'd played that many matches, but there's simply no way he ever would have been able to.

If Kiwis backed Test Cricket like England fans do, maybe they'd have got to see KW more often?

 

[Spark]

I think quantity for bowlers actually does stand up. Part of being an ATG in the case of Anderson and Broad is their ability to play so many matches. How many seamers over the years would've been utterly broken from that kind of workload? You could say that Steyn would've taken way more wickets if he'd played that many matches, but there's simply no way he ever would have been able to.

So are you picking Anderson over Steyn for a Test match? Does CSA's economic imperatives outweigh the actual performances Steyn put out on the park?

If Kiwis backed Test Cricket like England fans do, maybe they'd have got to see KW more often?

What on earth does this have to do with anything? This is bordering on saying that only English, Indian and Australian players can be truly great Test players because more is better and English players play even more so clearly they must be better again.

 

[trundler]

Nothing to see here, just Molehill being wrong again.

 

[Molehill]

So are you picking Anderson over Steyn for a Test match? Does CSA's economic imperatives outweigh the actual performances Steyn put out on the park?

Can Anderson and Steyn not both be ATG's? Or is there a strict definition of ATG that I'm unaware of?

Nothing to see here, just Molehill being wrong again.

My response to this from now on will simply be 'Boland'!!

 

[Silver Silva]

Quality all rounders are hard to come by for most test nations to be honest , especially seaming all rounders ..

 

[OverratedSanity]

For example Kane Williamson's career spans a longer period of time than Cook's. But the latter played seventy more Test matches during that time. Doesn't exactly feel fair to just go on quantity alone.

Yeah I've pointed this out before ,Cook's a classic case of English test match spam making it look like he had a really long career. He had a career as long as Sehwag's, who rightly isn't considered to have had great longevity.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah I've pointed this out before ,Cook's a classic case of English test match spam making it look like he had a really long career. He had a career as long as Sehwag's, who rightly isn't considered to have had great longevity.

Part of this is also that he played an enormous number of Tests without missing one. Missed what would have been his third, and then never missed one again I don’t think?

It works both ways. Playing more games in the same period of time as someone else takes its toll.

 

[Silver Silva]

I think quantity for bowlers actually does stand up. Part of being an ATG in the case of Anderson and Broad is their ability to play so many matches. How many seamers over the years would've been utterly broken from that kind of workload? You could say that Steyn would've taken way more wickets if he'd played that many matches, but there's simply no way he ever would have been able to.

If Kiwis backed Test Cricket like England fans do, maybe they'd have got to see KW more often?

If Steyn was English , he wouldn't have to play all three formats or focus on IPL that much to secure his future financially , a big privilege that English cricketers have is that they can afford to have Test only contracts or play the other white ball formats sporadically like what Broad and Anderson had for a good chunk of their careers to prolong their test career ..

They were also lucky that they didn't really have as strong a competition for bowling places that countries like SA or Australia did ..

Anderson averages over 30 in Ashes Cricket , if he was Australian he wouldn't have got the opportunity to play as many games as he has done , Peter Siddle has a better bowling average in Ashes than Jimmy Anderson but was in and out the Test side because they had guys like Hazlewood , Harris , Johnson etc that did better jobs in Ashes Cricket..

In an SA side you can't afford to average 30+ as a specialist bowler on your first 50 tests like Anderson did , just two average series would have seen you dropped for someone like a Morne Morkel , Steyn or Kyle Abbott and you'd be in an out the side..

Anderson and Broad do have outstanding fitness but there are also other factors that have led to them playing so many tests ..I think ECB deserve a lot of credit for how they invested in two bowlers and it has paid off handsomely.

 

[honestbharani]

especially seaming all rounders ..

*cries in Angelo*

 

[Ali TT]

If Steyn was English , he wouldn't have to play all three formats or focus on IPL that much to secure his future financially , a big privilege that English cricketers have is that they can afford to have Test only contracts or play the other white ball formats sporadically like what Broad and Anderson had for a good chunk of their careers to prolong their test career ..

They were also lucky that they didn't really have as strong a competition for bowling places that countries like SA or Australia did ..

Anderson averages over 30 in Ashes Cricket , if he was Australian he wouldn't have got the opportunity to play as many games as he has done , Peter Siddle has a better bowling average in Ashes than Jimmy Anderson but was in and out the Test side because they had guys like Hazlewood , Harris , Johnson etc that did better jobs in Ashes Cricket..

In an SA side you can't afford to average 30+ as a specialist bowler on your first 50 tests like Anderson did , just two average series would have seen you dropped for someone like a Morne Morkel , Steyn or Kyle Abbott and you'd be in an out the side..

Anderson and Broad do have outstanding fitness but there are also other factors that have led to them playing so many tests ..I think ECB deserve a lot of credit for how they invested in two bowlers and it has paid off handsomely.

Well, maybe if South Africa had backed their young bowlers a bit more, they wouldn't have lost so many to the kolpak world.

Anyhow, this is a thread about all-rounders, so just pointing out that Cook averaged 45 and 7.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet, but pitches which assist low-effort forms of bowling encourage allrounders. Australia is a **** place to be a middling medium pacer or spinner so everyone except the most freakishly talented have to specialise. NZ and Eng churn out seam allrounders because 125 seam-up can make you a frontline domestic bowler. India produces loads of finger-spin allrounders for the same reason.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I mean in the last 50 years they’ve produced 1 ATG bowler.

Who? Derek Underwood debuted in 1966.

 

[ataraxia]

Who? Derek Underwood debuted in 1966.

If Lillee's an ATG, then it must be Hoggard.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Just wondering who the all time great batsman was as no English batsmen have retired with an average over 50 in last 50 years

Likely same with bowlers, any retire with average under 25 in last 50 years?

Edit: did a fact check instead of from memory. Ken Barrington was last England player to retire with a 50+ average in 1968 (so 55 years) and the great Bob Willis was closest to under 25 with 25.20, retired 49 years ago in 1984

I'd call Underwood (last test 1982 then rebel tour) an ATG - very hard being a SENA spinner and average under 26 is superb.

 

[Adders]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet, but pitches which assist low-effort forms of bowling encourage allrounders. Australia is a **** place to be a middling medium pacer or spinner so everyone except the most freakishly talented have to specialise. NZ and Eng churn out seam allrounders because 125 seam-up can make you a frontline domestic bowler. India produces loads of finger-spin allrounders for the same reason.

Mate, I'm not saying you're not onto something with that.......but Flintoff and Stokes? 125kph seam up is pretty dismissive of them tbf. I'd add Botham too but that might of been close to his MO at the fag end of h8s career.

These blokes aren't Paul Collingwood ffs.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Mate, I'm not saying you're not onto something with that.......but Flintoff and Stokes? 125kph seam up is pretty dismissive of them tbf. I'd add Botham too but that might of been close to his MO at the fag end of h8s career.

These blokes aren't Paul Collingwood ffs.

It is definitely a factor in county cricket though - take Darren Stevens. And Jesse Ryder used to be a weapon with the ball in English conditions.

 

[Adders]

It is definitely a factor in county cricket though - take Darren Stevens. And Jesse Ryder used to be a weapon with the ball in English conditions.

Yeah for sure.....no doubt about that. We could chuck up 100's of names of successful county players that fit that bill. I mean like I said maybe Albi is onto something......if you produce enough of those players then I guess eventually you'll find a Flintoff, Stokes, Botham that are quick enough and sklilled enough to take it to test matches?

 

[Molehill]

It is definitely a factor in county cricket though - take Darren Stevens. And Jesse Ryder used to be a weapon with the ball in English conditions.

And that was one of the big criticisms of County Cricket. If blokes like that are able to cause carnage, then it's not exactly helping to prepare anyone for Test Cricket. Bowlers can take wickets without needing pace, batsmen never get to see real pace.

 

[Blenkinsop]

His Test stats aren't great but Craig White could bowl 145k. Always thought he would go on to be a real force in Test cricket, I guess injuries put paid to that.