How will this series measure up to Ashes 2005?

[subshakerz]

And you still think this 2023 side, with a walking wicket for an opener, an ineffective 3rd seamer, no spinner and a misfiring middle order would beat England 2005?

In England, no. In most place, yes.

 

[subshakerz]

There's definitely something in this, so please don't think I'm trashing your point for the sake of it. Just exploring the conversation really. Looking back, it absolutely makes sense that they saw Edgbaston Day 1 as something they couild take advantage of. No McGrath, and only a first day pitch in Birmingham for Warne. Especially the openers, who set about all four of the Australian bowlers in a way that we hadn't seen before, whereas KP and Flintoff batted like they always did. I still think there was a mental dynamic that we wouldn't have seen in previous series even when McGrath was absent, which must have happened occasionally.

I find the whole 'fear' factor quite interesting. The thought I'm trying to articulate (maybe not very well) is that McGrath's dominance was not because they feared him, it was simply because there were days when he was far too good for them. Obviously they had massive respect for him and knew what he was capable of, but I don't think it was primarily a mental thing. Look back to England's first innings in the previous two home Ashes series, and we didn't find ourselves 20 for 5, or whatever it was at Lord's in 2005. With Warne, on the other hand, I think there was a mental thing as well as the fact that he was an ATG bowler. Maybe because we have generally been hopeless against leg spin because we hardly ever come across it. Maybe it all goes back to his impact in 1993 with the ball of the century and all that. I don't know. Maybe it's simply that Warne was a genius. But when I look at days when the pressure got too much for England's batsmen against Warne (the third innings at Edgbaston, the fourth innings at Trent Bridge, the first innings at The Oval and, next time around, their second innings at Adelaide of course), the capitulation felt like it was above and beyond the quality of what they were facing.

I have no idea how much of that makes sense. Just thinking aloud and enjoying the exchange of ideas.

Warne no doubt was a great bowler but in Ashes 2005, he only really came into the game in the second innings, by which time England had the upper hand most often.

However, I would say England's aggressiveness with the bat in that series was a marked departure from the past decade or two.

I think people have sort of missed the point of what makes a great cricket series. It’s not necessarily about who had the greatest players in which era etc. It’s more to do with thrilling and exciting cricket that is played by the cricketers that each nation puts up at the time. The 2023 England team may not have the traditional skills that the 2005 team had but they are playing their own brand of cricket. Australia are putting up the best players they can and are probably only second-best to India in the last 5 year cycle. The result is a close and exciting series. No team has ever come from 2-0 behind to win an Ashes series, which in itself makes this Ashes just as enthralling as 2005.

I really think posters here are underrating this England side. Man for man, they may be only slightly behind the 2005 team, but they have zero fear in how they play, which tends to lead to sloppiness though.

I think this series if it continues in this way will easily match Ashes 2005 if not, I dare say, exceed it for sheer entertainment.

 

[GIMH]

You're saying a one series wonder like Jones (without the aid of Murray mints) is equal to McGrath? Ffs

What a silly post man.

Nowhere did he compare him to McGrath, non sequitur.

The one series wonder comment is junk too. Would he have sustained his levels? Who knows. He’d had a horror injury, come back from that and in South Africa was bowling brilliantly, took that into the English summer. Averaging 21 against that Aussie batting line-up is a seriously impressive feat. Oz only put a big first innings score on once he was out the side.

I don’t think there’s any scenario we retain in 06-07 but a few things weakened us and I think that we may have avoided the 0-5 with a stronger team. But we were weakened and that’s that

 

[SteveNZ]

Steve, as our resident 2005 expert (I probably watched 95% of balls bowled but you're impartial), could you confirm how many runs were still needed when Kaspro was given not out lbw by Bowden (would've been overturned on DRS). My memory says it was about 56 but could be wrong.

I hadn't remembered that, but since seen that it was Kasper's first ball. Umpires used to be hilarious like that, they were less likely to give someone first ball (unless it was a hat trick). Then DRS sorted it out and they worked out you had to look harder.

The whole 05 series had swings both ways. At Old Trafford, Warne was out to a nick Strauss got his hands nowhere near that rebounded off his thigh to Jones. Ponting undergloved a loose ball down the leg side (and as a miracle, Bowden got it right after a delay, from memory).

At the end of it all, England probably had more people operating at world class (Flintoff, S.Jones, Pietersen) some who were very good at times (Harmison, Hoggard, Trescothick, Vaughan, Giles, Strauss) while Australia had Warne in God mode, McGrath good for 3 Tests, Lee who had big moments and really bugger all else.

 

[SteveNZ]

Warne no doubt was a great bowler but in Ashes 2005, he only really came into the game in the second innings, by which time England had the upper hand most often.

Not sure that's true. 2-19, 4-116, 4-99, 4-102, 6-122 in the first innings. Took 40 wickets in the series, 20 in both the first and second innings.

 

[Spark]

I hadn't remembered that, but since seen that it was Kasper's first ball. Umpires used to be hilarious like that, they were less likely to give someone first ball (unless it was a hat trick). Then DRS sorted it out and they worked out you had to look harder.

The whole 05 series had swings both ways. At Old Trafford, Warne was out to a nick Strauss got his hands nowhere near that rebounded off his thigh to Jones. Ponting undergloved a loose ball down the leg side (and as a miracle, Bowden got it right after a delay, from memory).

At the end of it all, England probably had more people operating at world class (Flintoff, S.Jones, Pietersen) some who were very good at times (Harmison, Hoggard, Trescothick, Vaughan, Giles, Strauss) while Australia had Warne in God mode, McGrath good for 3 Tests, Lee who had big moments and really bugger all else.

Martyn and Katich got sawn off I think four times between them, given LBW off huge inside edges.

 

[Spark]

Warne no doubt was a great bowler but in Ashes 2005, he only really came into the game in the second innings, by which time England had the upper hand most often.

This is ludicrously untrue.

 

[SteveNZ]

Martyn and Katich got sawn off I think four times between them, given LBW off huge inside edges.

Yep, I remember one of Martyn's I think in particular where he basically hit it sideways. I don't think awful decisions had any prejudice in that series, both sides copped it. Maybe Australia more if I remember rightly. Billy could easily be swayed by a crowd or particularly strong personalities.

I would like to use this opportunity to say that Billy Bowden, in a sign written car with his name and caricature face on it, overtook me at screaming pace one day...in a stadium carpark. He was an absolute lunatic.

 

[subshakerz]

I don’t think there’s any scenario we retain in 06-07 but a few things weakened us and I think that we may have avoided the 0-5 with a stronger team. But we were weakened and that’s that

Y'know, it is weird that since that 2006, with the big obvious exception of 2010, England tend to get wiped out completely when they tour Australia.

Until 2002, they could still win a game here or there.

 

[Kirkut]

In England maybe they would win. But that Vaughn side was destroyed by Pakistan a few months later.

But Cummins has a better overall team for all conditions. Better middle order, better pace attack, better spinner.

That English side does get overrated here. It was an ATG series but England weren't demolishing sides like West Indies of 80s did.

 

[subshakerz]

Not sure that's true. 2-19, 4-116, 4-99, 4-102, 6-122 in the first innings. Took 40 wickets in the series, 20 in both the first and second innings.

Yeah so he didn't run through the side in the 1st innings. Those are damage control stats as the rest of the pacers were better pillored. He wasn't setting up games to win in the 1st innings.

 

[Kirkut]

If Bairstow could catch, England would be 3-0 up and this series done and dusted.

Aus did have a superior spinner, but he's long since gone. Not talking about anywhere else, talking about an Ashes series in England.

Similarly if Warner fires consistently, if Labuschagne gets his focus right, if Smith is in 2019 beast mode, it would have been 3-0 for Aus

 

[subshakerz]

Similarly if Warner fires consistently, if Labuschagne gets his focus right, if Smith is in 2019 beast mode, it would have been 3-0 for Aus

None of them were in sterling form entering the series though.

 

[Ali TT]

In England, no. In most place, yes.

As has been pointed out, Ashes series aren't played in "most places"

That English side does get overrated here. It was an ATG series but England weren't demolishing sides like West Indies of 80s did.

I don't think any England fan is going to claim the 2005 side was an ATG one. Certainly not even on the same page as the 80s Windies. It was a good side with good players who raised their game to beat an ATG team. They'd also had an excellent couple of years, winning six series in a row but it all unravelled pretty quickly.

 

[Qlder]

Similarly if Warner fires consistently, if Labuschagne gets his focus right, if Smith is in 2019 beast mode, it would have been 3-0 for Aus

Or if Green lived up to his hype, or if Lyon wasn't injured, or if Neser was selected, 3-0

 

[Ali TT]

I think this thread will be moot after the Old Trafford test is washed out

 

[GIMH]

Similarly if Warner fires consistently, if Labuschagne gets his focus right, if Smith is in 2019 beast mode, it would have been 3-0 for Aus

I don’t necessarily agree that Bairstow’s drops are the difference between 1-2 and 3-0 but this response makes no sense. There’s a clear difference between missed chances and the examples you’ve given.

 

[centurymaker]

I think this thread will be moot after the Old Trafford test is washed out

Forecast not looking good.
Need to make a green seamer that keeps the match really short.

 

[GIMH]

Eh, forecast looks reasonable, a bit of rain but should be a result

 

[wpdavid]

I suspect the weather foecast has ended any debate there might have been about whether Jimmy gets picked.