South Africa team selection

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Disappointing that the Sri Lankan seamers are doing the damage in the second innings

 

[Dendarii]

Why is Brevis batting at 7? I know there's a bit of just throwing the batsmen they want to get a look at into the side and they won't necessarily all bat in their usual positions, but wouldn't it makes more sense for him to come in ahead of Qeshile? Not that it'll have made much difference for this match.

 

[Marius]

12 in the match for Muthusamy. Even in the A side it's the bowlers carrying the team.

Best FC match figures too for Muthusamy.

 

[StephenZA]

All this series tells me is SA continue with the same consistent issues and problems. Batting struggles in foreign, particularly spinning ,conditions But bowling looks great (I`m not talking Muthusamy, who I do rate). But again with a main SA team already chocked full of quality fast bowlers, we still have Coetzee and what looks like another up and comer in Maphaka to consider.

But the batting is still so hit and miss. And for me this is very much because of a lack of coaching and development at a young age. Batting is a more technically difficult skill. As long as a bowler does not screw his action up to much, you need a set of makeshift stumps and a tennis ball to bowl and to build consistency. Later you can get given guidance and improvement to improve technical issues. Batting though, other than the expense of equipment, needs far more facilities, people to bowl to you, and guidance at a much younger age to ensure that you don't build to many technical deficiencies that need to be over come later down the line.

So ultimately all SA problems come back to poor management and lack of development at grass roots level. I absolutely feel that if SA had put money into developing across the country, right now we would have plenty of young players of all colours fighting to get into SA team.

At least hopefully we are getting more of these SA 'A' series to help develop players.

 

[Marius]

All this series tells me is SA continue with the same consistent issues and problems. Batting struggles in foreign, particularly spinning ,conditions But bowling looks great (I`m not talking Muthusamy, who I do rate). But again with a main SA team already chocked full of quality fast bowlers, we still have Coetzee and what looks like another up and comer in Maphaka to consider.

But the batting is still so hit and miss. And for me this is very much because of a lack of coaching and development at a young age. Batting is a more technically difficult skill. As long as a bowler does not screw his action up to much, you need a set of makeshift stumps and a tennis ball to bowl and to build consistency. Later you can get given guidance and improvement to improve technical issues. Batting though, other than the expense of equipment, needs far more facilities, people to bowl to you, and guidance at a much younger age to ensure that you don't build to many technical deficiencies that need to be over come later down the line.

So ultimately all SA problems come back to poor management and lack of development at grass roots level. I absolutely feel that if SA had put money into developing across the country, right now we would have plenty of young players of all colours fighting to get into SA team.

At least hopefully we are getting more of these SA 'A' series to help develop players.

I think even if we had amazing facilities in every township, village, and dorpie in SA, we would still have many of the same issues.

Batting is very technical as you say and you need to get good coaching from a fairly young age. It is no surprise that most of SA's batters come from private schools or government schools that have strong sporting traditions, like KES or Jeppe etc. Access to really good coaching is difficult to get and even people with some means can't always afford to send their kids to schools where they will get these kinds of coaching.

but this is not an SA-only problem. In Crickonomics by Tim Wigmore and Stefan Szymanski they point out that most people who go on to play for England as batters also go to that country's elite schools. You are far more likely to play for England if you go to a private school and can go to coaching than even if you go to a decent school which offers cricket in Beckenham in London, for example.

I would hazard a guess that most people who become batters for India and Australia, NZ etc have come from middle class families and have gone to their equivalents of Affies and St Johns.

And look at India, Muslims are on average poorer than other Indians. Now there were two Muslims that played in the WTC final for India, Mohammad Siraj and Mohammad Shami, and they are bowlers. Of course, this is a small sample but I reckon if you do some analysis most Muslims and Dalits who have played for India have probably been bowlers, rather than batters.

EDIT: According to this article from 2018 at the time of the nearly 300 people who have played Test cricket for India, only four are Dalits. The issue of access to the sport for people on lower incomes and from disadvantaged backgrounds is not an SA-only phenomenon: https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/why-no-dalit-cricketers-in-india-20180531-p4zim6.html

 

[StephenZA]

I think even if we had amazing facilities in every township, village, and dorpie in SA, we would still have many of the same issues.

Batting is very technical as you say and you need to get good coaching from a fairly young age. It is no surprise that most of SA's batters come from private schools or government schools that have strong sporting traditions, like KES or Jeppe etc. Access to really good coaching is difficult to get and even people with some means can't always afford to send their kids to schools where they will get these kinds of coaching.

but this is not an SA-only problem. In Crickonomics by Tim Wigmore and Stefan Szymanski they point out that most people who go on to play for England as batters also go to that country's elite schools. You are far more likely to play for England if you go to a private school and can go to coaching than even if you go to a decent school which offers cricket in Beckenham in London, for example.

I would hazard a guess that most people who become batters for India and Australia, NZ etc have come from middle class families and have gone to their equivalents of Affies and St Johns.

And look at India, Muslims are on average poorer than other Indians. Now there were two Muslims that played in the WTC final for India, Mohammad Siraj and Mohammad Shami, and they are bowlers. Of course, this is a small sample but I reckon if you do some analysis most Muslims and Dalits who have played for India have probably been bowlers, rather than batters.

EDIT: According to this article from 2018 at the time of the nearly 300 people who have played Test cricket for India, only four are Dalits. The issue of access to the sport for people on lower incomes and from disadvantaged backgrounds is not an SA-only phenomenon: https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/why-no-dalit-cricketers-in-india-20180531-p4zim6.html

Its most definitely not a SA only problem... the question is what is being done about it here in SA? And right now I think little to nothing, with no plans. And it has a big impact on SA success because whether we like it or not, social demographics is an important contribution to SA and SA selection. So the whole effect in SA is magnified compared to England as an example.

 

[Marius]

Its most definitely not a SA only problem... the question is what is being done about it here in SA? And right now I think little to nothing, with no plans. And it has a big impact on SA success because whether we like it or not, social demographics is an important contribution to SA and SA selection. So the whole effect in SA is magnified compared to England as an example.

But that's the point, even if every village and dorpie had decent nets and a coach most batters would still be coming from where they come from now.

 

[Dendarii]

Batting is very technical as you say and you need to get good coaching from a fairly young age. It is no surprise that most of SA's batters come from private schools or government schools that have strong sporting traditions, like KES or Jeppe etc. Access to really good coaching is difficult to get and even people with some means can't always afford to send their kids to schools where they will get these kinds of coaching.

And the school system is part of the reason why we've struggled to produce black batsmen. Even though the top schools offer scholarships, it's far easier to identify bowling potential than batting potential, and that's the reason that it's the likes of Ntini and Ngidi who have come out of that sort of development process.

 

[StephenZA]

But that's the point, even if every village and dorpie had decent nets and a coach most batters would still be coming from where they come from now.

I don't agree with that. They would not be a perfect place but they would form a better place! If every dorpie had nets and a quality coach then it would help tremendously... however to produce those facilities and produce those quality coaches takes money and effort. And while I agree it is an unrealistic short term perspective, because the monies in not there, I still want to know what they are doing to improve the situation now as is. Rather than sitting on the sideline wringing their hands. Because small increments can make a big difference from a low bar.

The whole point of the private school part here (SA or Eng) is that they can afford to pay the best coaches, and provide the best facilities. i.e that the skills required to improve the situation is available to the students. But on top there is a social aspect, cultural etc etc. The position of the English system is not one that we need to think of as 'this is all that can be done', it is one of 'that is the way it is for England now'. I am sure that many in Eng would like them to try do better and have ideas to do so.

What is CSA actually doing here? Where is the monies put into development? Because I see big marketing splashes and hear about the occasional single person trying in their area, but what is the actual plan from CSA's perspective?

 

[Marius]

I don't agree with that. They would not be a perfect place but they would form a better place! If every dorpie had nets and a quality coach then it would help tremendously... however to produce those facilities and produce those quality coaches takes money and effort. And while I agree it is an unrealistic short term perspective, because the monies in not there, I still want to know what they are doing to improve the situation now as is. Rather than sitting on the sideline wringing their hands. Because small increments can make a big difference from a low bar.

The whole point of the private school part here (SA or Eng) is that they can afford to pay the best coaches, and provide the best facilities. i.e that the skills required to improve the situation is available to the students. But on top there is a social aspect, cultural etc etc. The position of the English system is not one that we need to think of as 'this is all that can be done', it is one of 'that is the way it is for England now'. I am sure that many in Eng would like them to try do better and have ideas to do so.

What is CSA actually doing here? Where is the monies put into development? Because I see big marketing splashes and hear about the occasional single person trying in their area, but what is the actual plan from CSA's perspective?

Then why does a country like England, which is far richer than SA and where cricket is culturally more embedded than here, still see most of its batters come from the same schools and backgrounds?

Also, on the point of having quality nets etc everywhere I think it's important to have that but so that everyone who wants to play the game can do so. Developing players for the Proteas is a bonus, far more important to let everyone who wants to play the game get the opportunity to do so.

Just playing cricket is an end itself.

 

[StephenZA]

Then why does a country like England, which is far richer than SA and where cricket is culturally more embedded than here, still see most of its batters come from the same schools and backgrounds?

What is 'most'? 60 % or 70 %? And those schools still have the best facilities and coaches, and of course there is a regional or social effect and cultural background from those schools that also contributes. But the chance of another talent from another region is not totally lost, because facilities do exist, and those players while finding it more difficult compared to the specific English private schools still have a better chance. In SA's case the majority of batsmen are like 90 % out of like 6 schools (/s edited to indicated gross exaggeration!), combined with the current demographics and socioeconomics problems, its not sustainable.

If we can get it in SA that 60 % come out of those 6 odd schools and 40 % come from the rural areas and townships we are so very very much better off than the current scenario.

Just went and looked it up.

Educating Cricket: Does cricket have an elitism problem? - Cricket Bet India

Why international cricket is becoming increasingly more elitist and how education can help get to the top.

www.cricketbetindia.com

Also, on the point of having quality nets etc everywhere I think it's important to have that but so that everyone who wants to play the game can do so. Developing players for the Proteas is a bonus, far more important to let everyone who wants to play the game get the opportunity to do so.

Just playing cricket is an end itself.

I agree just playing cricket is an end to itself, and having facilities available will enhance that. But lets not fool ourselves as to why kids play the game, and what gets them excited and many play because "I want to be like Rabada". People are attracted to success and to people they feel they can relate to. So a winning proteas cricket team that allows for kids to look at and have idols they can relate to, creates the want to play cricket. And so the cycle perpetuates.

But once again, all I want to do is see a plan from CSA, whatever that plan is? Tell me something, show me how they came to it, and how they will implement it. What's the plan to move the needle 10 %? Right now all I see is twiddling of fingers and lots of promises, with little action.

 

[StephenZA]

How much I fully trust that study I don't know. I would like to see a more detailed study. But I can believe that's about correct.

 

[Marius]

What is 'most'? 60 % or 70 %? And those schools still have the best facilities and coaches, and of course there is a regional or social effect and cultural background from those schools that also contributes. But the chance of another talent from another region is not totally lost, because facilities do exist, and those players while finding it more difficult compared to the specific English private schools still have a better chance. In SA's case the majority of batsmen are like 90 % out of like 6 schools (/s edited to indicated gross exaggeration!), combined with the current demographics and socioeconomics problems, its not sustainable.

If we can get it in SA that 60 % come out of those 6 odd schools and 40 % come from the rural areas and townships we are so very very much better off than the current scenario.

Just went and looked it up.
View attachment 36035

Educating Cricket: Does cricket have an elitism problem? - Cricket Bet India

Why international cricket is becoming increasingly more elitist and how education can help get to the top.

www.cricketbetindia.com

I agree just playing cricket is an end to itself, and having facilities available will enhance that. But lets not fool ourselves as to why kids play the game, and what gets them excited and many play because "I want to be like Rabada". People are attracted to success and to people they feel they can relate to. So a winning proteas cricket team that allows for kids to look at and have idols they can relate to, creates the want to play cricket. And so the cycle perpetuates.

But once again, all I want to do is see a plan from CSA, whatever that plan is? Tell me something, show me how they came to it, and how they will implement it. What's the plan to move the needle 10 %? Right now all I see is twiddling of fingers and lots of promises, with little action.

With India I think most of those private schools are likely to be low-fee private schools (of the kind you get in SA in townships and lots of inner cities). There is zero chance that half of Indian kids are in St Johns or Bishops type schools where fees are $5000 - $10 000 a year or more.

Also, would take those numbers with a pinch of salt for SA, according to this only about 20% of guys who have played for the Proteas post-readmission went to pvt schools.

Elite boys’ schools still shape South Africa’s national cricket team

Decades into democracy, the country’s top cricketers still come from fewer than 50 elite schools – mostly boys-only schools.

theconversation.com

Seems a more important factor is whether you went to a boys-only school.

EDIT: Ja, looked at the dude's numbers, they're wrong. He says, for example, KES and Affies are private, when they're not and that St Stithians (!) is a state school..

 

[Socerer 01]

yeah anyone with even a lower middle class income sends their kids to a private school in India. sometimes even poorer families scrounge money to send kids to private schools, they aren’t all of the same standard either

 

[Marius]

Nice story on Maphaka, hope he gets managed properly and doesn't burn out at 25.

Very quick progress for teen cricketing prodigy Kwena Maphaka

Teenage bowling sensation Kwena Maphaka is in the fast lane to success, but his coach wants him to slow down a little.

www.dailymaverick.co.za

 

[andruid]

I think even if we had amazing facilities in every township, village, and dorpie in SA, we would still have many of the same issues.

Batting is very technical as you say and you need to get good coaching from a fairly young age. It is no surprise that most of SA's batters come from private schools or government schools that have strong sporting traditions, like KES or Jeppe etc. Access to really good coaching is difficult to get and even people with some means can't always afford to send their kids to schools where they will get these kinds of coaching.

but this is not an SA-only problem. In Crickonomics by Tim Wigmore and Stefan Szymanski they point out that most people who go on to play for England as batters also go to that country's elite schools. You are far more likely to play for England if you go to a private school and can go to coaching than even if you go to a decent school which offers cricket in Beckenham in London, for example.

I would hazard a guess that most people who become batters for India and Australia, NZ etc have come from middle class families and have gone to their equivalents of Affies and St Johns.

And look at India, Muslims are on average poorer than other Indians. Now there were two Muslims that played in the WTC final for India, Mohammad Siraj and Mohammad Shami, and they are bowlers. Of course, this is a small sample but I reckon if you do some analysis most Muslims and Dalits who have played for India have probably been bowlers, rather than batters.

EDIT: According to this article from 2018 at the time of the nearly 300 people who have played Test cricket for India, only four are Dalits. The issue of access to the sport for people on lower incomes and from disadvantaged backgrounds is not an SA-only phenomenon: https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/why-no-dalit-cricketers-in-india-20180531-p4zim6.html

Crickonomics is out?

 

[Marius]

Crickonomics is out?

I bought a copy last year already.

 

[Heboric]

Well done Tristan nice 100, pity we lost lhose wickets at the end of the day though

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Well done Tristan nice 100, pity we lost lhose wickets at the end of the day though

That Off Break Bowler Manasinghe is an absolutely gun he will be playing for Sri Lanka soon , we do not want to be chasing anything over 200 against the Spin trio of Mendis , Manasinghe and Jayawickrama

 

[Marius]

Well done Tristan nice 100, pity we lost lhose wickets at the end of the day though

I think you mean TrisTON