*Official* World Test Championship Final at The Oval – June 7–11, 2023

[Prince EWS]

Ahhhh...I thought this was a six-day Test, I didn't realise it was only six to cover weather (as happened last year). My declaration post looks stupid in regards to this new information.

You're not the first person to make that mistake in this thread, don't worry.

I will say though that if they've gone to the effort of scheduling six days we should really be able to make up lost time for other reasons too (bad light, bad over-rates, other delays).

 

[TheJediBrah]

He seems to get picked on his upside, the fact he bowls with his left arm and the potential of his feet in regards to Nathan Lyon, rather than actual performance.

Although I do fear a Cummins/Boland/Neser attack might be a tad sameish and could be easily attacked.

I'm getting sicking of hearing about it tbh. "Left-arm variety" or "other bowlers are too similar" are only relevant factors if your variety (ie Starc) is at least close to the same level of performance as the alternatives. Having 4 right-arm bowlers who all bowl the exact same pace and do the same thing with the ball is way better than having 3 + a left-arm scatter gun that does nothing but get slapped around

 

[morgieb]

Ahhhh...I thought this was a six-day Test, I didn't realise it was only six to cover weather (as happened last year). My declaration post looks stupid in regards to this new information.

Yeah I was a bit confused too in that regard initially, especially when the other WTC match was rain-delayed. I like the idea of reserve days in general but having them for only one Test every two years is gonna confuse a lot of people.

 

[SteveNZ]

I'm getting sicking of hearing about it tbh. "Left-arm variety" or "other bowlers are too similar" are only relevant factors if your variety (ie Starc) is at least close to the same level of performance as the alternatives. Having 4 right-arm bowlers who all bowl the exact same pace and do the same thing with the ball is way better than having 3 + a left-arm scatter gun that does nothing but get slapped around

Yeah, that point of view does lack in substance, in my view.

I've never spoken to a Test batsman of the 70s and 80s about it, but I would imagine no one was resting on their laurels about the fact the West Indies had four tall right arm quicks and thanking the good lord they didn't have a left-armer. That's a bit churlish, but if your four best bowlers are right armers - as I would, and you by the looks - would argue, then to me you pick them. Bowlers are so skilled at bowling around the wicket these days that it's really irrelevant. Starc will play at least one Test in the Ashes based on rotation, but I don't think he should automatically play at Edgbaston and that it should necessarily be Boland v Hazelwood.

In fact, against England, I'd back in a guy hitting strong back of a length like Boland over Starc if England are coming hard at them. They'll get a lot more joy out of Starc's lack of control than they would over Boland nibbling it and hitting a consistent hard length. I'd be really impressed if they had the guts to go with the three right arm seamers and Green.

 

[GotSpin]

Starc clearly shouldn’t be playing in the first test

cummins looks pretty awful too

 

[SteveNZ]

Earlier I didn't really mind who won (would've preferred a draw tbh), but now I'm supporting the Aussies (oi, oi, oi) after the terrible reaction of Indian fans and even players to Green's fair catch.

This is purely 'it's not a catch because it's us dismissed by it' rubbish. It's really immature. If an Indian caught that (and someone may be able to point out a similar moment) I am certain they'd be claiming it - as they should.

 

[morgieb]

For me it's less a question of Boland v Starc v Hazlewood and more a question of Starc v Neser. If Hazlewood's properly fit the first choice attack should clearly be Cummins/Boland/Hazlewood. I just have a lot of doubt as to how fit he actually is. If this was the England side of even two years ago I'd be all for Neser, but I do worry that if we get pitches ala the first half of the last English summer the Oz attack might prove too hittable to effectively counter Bazball. With Starc in theory he might be as easy to attack, but he could also bowl a few unplayable ones. I think 4 140km+ right-armers is not going to get questions about sameishness, but if they're closer to 130km (granted Cummins and Green are closer to 140km - even Boland's been up there this Test) then it does seem a bit too sameish for England's current MO. See the New Zealand attack in the 2022 series.

That said with how Starc's bowling it doesn't really matter, he'll be a liability without the upside for the series. Of course, he could run through India and make us eat our words.

 

[Starfighter]

That said with how Starc's bowling it doesn't really matter, he'll be a liability without the upside for the series.

And that's the problem. Going by England's demands this pitch could very well be the most bowling friendly one seen all tour, and England are obviously backing themselves to create such great pressure with the bat that their own attack being negated won't be a factor. While there seems to be something to pace in combating BazBall, it won't work when fastest bowler is bowling crap.

I was hoping Starc's recently improved test performances and rediscovery of his swing in the India ODI series meant he might finally put it together in England, but this test is up there with the worst he's bowled, and he's sent down some awful stuff in his career.

It's frustrating that Morris' spine is apparently no stronger than our previous quick bowlers and Johnson doesn't have enough experience. Richardson being in fitness hell is another frustrating miss.

Cummins looks well short of the rhythm he relies on. When Morris was ruled out of his county stint I reckon they should have organised for Cummins to replace him - it would have been a good opportunity for him to get some overs into his legs. I think it was supposed to be three matches, which isn't too many after a fairly long break.

 

[Prince EWS]

I know I'm usually the first person to take the piss out of people annoyingly bringing up awful commentary from outside this forum that we should ignore, but some of the crap surrounding the Green catch is next level.

I can definitely understand the argument that even though there were fingers under the ball some part of the ball may have touched the grass and that some people think those shouldn't be out. I don't agree but it's a grey area - fair enough. What is really totally nonsense is the idea that Green was somehow a massive cheat for claiming it in the first place.

I'm telling you, 100% of international players would've claimed that. If the third umpire overturns it then aright, but Green himself definitely did nothing wrong. No cricketer is going to say, 'nah I think the ball shaved the top of the longest blade of grass there' in that situation. There's always some amount of this type of commentary, but the extent of it this time has absolutely blown me away.

 

[Starfighter]

Yep that's the way I'd be going if I was Australia. He seems to get picked on his upside, the fact he bowls with his left arm and the potential of his feet in regards to Nathan Lyon, rather than actual performance. As I said a couple of days ago, I think England will be thrilled if he plays. And he will, and Australia will try and guess where he'll be effective.

Just as leg spinners seem to get an extra boost in many people's eyes just for being legspinners, the same applies with left arm fast bowlers (but not spinners). They're often treated like they average three or four runs less than they do.

As for the footmarks thing, when I checked before the India series his averages with and without Starc were nearly identical, slightly less without in fact.

 

[SteveNZ]

Just as leg spinners seem to get an extra boost in many people's eyes just for being legspinners, the same applies with left arm fast bowlers (but not spinners). They're often treated like they average three or four runs less than they do.

As for the footmarks thing, when I checked before the India series his averages with and without Starc were nearly identical, slightly less without in fact.

There ya go. Some cold, hard facts to back the argument. It's not irrefutable without further analysing the conditions of those Tests with, and without, but it certainly goes to suggest it's not a laydown that Starc should play because Lyon is.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

I know I'm usually the first person to take the piss out of people annoyingly bringing up awful commentary from outside this forum that we should ignore, but some of the crap surrounding the Green catch is next level.

I can definitely understand the argument that even though there were fingers under the ball some part of the ball may have touched the grass and that some people think those shouldn't be out. I don't agree but it's a grey area - fair enough. What is really totally nonsense is the idea that Green was somehow a massive cheat for claiming it in the first place.

I'm telling you, 100% of international players would've claimed that. If the third umpire overturns it then aright, but Green himself definitely did nothing wrong. No cricketer is going to say, 'nah I think the ball shaved the top of the longest blade of grass there' in that situation. There's always some amount of this type of commentary, but the extent of it this time has absolutely blown me away.

"The batter knows when they've hit it"

 

[trundler]

What is really totally nonsense is the idea that Green was somehow a massive cheat for claiming it in the first place.

I would normally agree but he's Australian so he must've done something wrong

 

[Prince EWS]

I would normally agree but he's Australian so he must've done something wrong

Oh no doubt, but that wasn't it.

 

[Starfighter]

 

[Starfighter]

I would normally agree but he's Australian so he must've done something wrong

I'd say his tactics against Jadeja count as something.

 

[Shri]

 

[the big bambino]

Hopefully Gill be fined and suspended for dissent.

 

[Gnske]

Poor baby let his IPL successes give him a sense of entitlement.

Let him sook, the team culture is one of sooking anyway.

r/cricket truly turns into a cesspit whenever something like this happens to India.

 

[GotSpin]

That finger growing through the ball is more concerning