The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Pothas]

You really don't have to apply any sort of niche criteria to make the case that Anderson is better.

I mean it goes without saying that comparing bowlers that are not far off hundred years apart is ridiculous anyway. Larwood is a great figure, if you want him in your all time team then go ahead.

 

[ataraxia]

You really don't have to apply any sort of niche criteria to make the case that Anderson is better.

Ok right, Larwood's also **** , but that is more a matter of personal opinion imo

 

[trundler]

Anderson is just better in every way by a fair margin.

Larwood is the sort of bloke you pick in an all time XI to avoid picking guys who are clearly not good enough. Covering up a weakness by shrouding it in mystery and pizzazz. Before Anderson made his case, the main contenders for that spot were Statham (very good but not exciting enough) followed by Tate, Willis, and Snow who all have obvious limitations that stand out compared to great players. That said, there won't be another Bradman and thus no other Larwood so you could reward him for his unique place in cricketing lore I suppose.

 

[Coronis]

Miandad and Younis are both bonafide ATGs.

Mm I put “at least one” for SA and Pak cos of peoples different opinions on definition of ATG and how many players are ATG - for me I think Younis and Miandad are too.

 

[Coronis]

I have to believe that the people at the telegraph are in their 20s, so they don't know much about cricket. Stokes, Cook and Kevin have no business being in an England XI.

Tbh I’d rather have him than Compton, though Root over both.

 

[HookShot]

I have to believe that the people at the telegraph are in their 20s, so they don't know much about cricket. Stokes, Cook and Kevin have no business being in an England XI.

Stokes is clearly an ATG all rounder unless the wheels fall off during the next few years. Averaged >40 with the bat and <30 with ball for a good percentage of his Test career. Plus there are his iconic innings.

 

[HookShot]

Anderson is just better in every way by a fair margin.

Larwood is the sort of bloke you pick in an all time XI to avoid picking guys who are clearly not good enough. Covering up a weakness by shrouding it in mystery and pizzazz. Before Anderson made his case, the main contenders for that spot were Statham (very good but not exciting enough) followed by Tate, Willis, and Snow who all have obvious limitations that stand out compared to great players. That said, there won't be another Bradman and thus no other Larwood so you could reward him for his unique place in cricketing lore I suppose.

Larwood is better at bowling Bodyline.

 

[HookShot]

The all-time England Test XI, based on the ICC rankings
1. Len Hutton
2. Jack Hobbs
3. Peter May
4. Denis Compton
5. Joe Root
6. Alec Stewart (wk)
7. Ian Botham
8. Tony Lock
9. Derek Underwood
10. Sydney Barnes
11. George Lohmann

The all-time England Test XI, based on the ICC rankings

Who would make an all-time England Test XI? It’s a pretty tough ask to put that team together, so we’ve decided to take a look at what the ICC’s rankings tell us.

wisden.com

I think that the pitch would need to favour spin.

 

[HookShot]

Len Hutton and Keith Miller were asked to select their respective ATG England and Australian teams during the 1977 Centenary Test in Melbourne.

This is what they came up with….

01. Jack Hobbs
02. Herbert Sutcliffe
03. Walter Hammond
04. Maurice Leyland
05. Len Hutton
06. Frank Woolley
07. Les Ames
08. George Hirst
09. Wilfred Rhodes
10. Harold Larwood
11. Sydney Barnes


01. Charles Bannerman
02. Victor Trumper
03. Don Bradman
04. Bill Ponsford
05. Stan McCabe
06. Monty Noble
07. Keith Miller
08. Ray Lindwall
09. Don Tallon
10. Clarrie Grimmett
11. Bill O’Reilly


Hutton is showing an obvious Yorkshire bias, although he did say at the time that he specifically picked Maurice Leyland because he “had the jinx on O’Reilly”.

It’s interesting that Hutton preferred Harold Larwood as the “spearhead fast bowler” to either Fred Trueman or Frank Tyson.

I really like Miller’s team, although Bannerman is a bit odd.

Interestingly, Miller remarked that Bill O’Reilly was “the greatest bowler of any type the game has ever seen”.

 

[Coronis]

Len Hutton and Keith Miller were asked to select their respective ATG England and Australian teams during the 1977 Centenary Test in Melbourne.

This is what they came up with….

01. Jack Hobbs
02. Herbert Sutcliffe
03. Walter Hammond
04. Maurice Leyland
05. Len Hutton
06. Frank Woolley
07. Les Ames
08. George Hirst
09. Wilfred Rhodes
10. Harold Larwood
11. Sydney Barnes


01. Charles Bannerman
02. Victor Trumper
03. Don Bradman
04. Bill Ponsford
05. Stan McCabe
06. Monty Noble
07. Keith Miller
08. Ray Lindwall
09. Don Tallon
10. Clarrie Grimmett
11. Bill O’Reilly


Hutton is showing an obvious Yorkshire bias, although he did say at the time that he specifically picked Maurice Leyland because he “had the jinx on O’Reilly”.

It’s interesting that Hutton preferred Harold Larwood as the “spearhead fast bowler” to either Fred Trueman or Frank Tyson.

I really like Miller’s team, although Bannerman is a bit odd.

Interestingly, Miller remarked that Bill O’Reilly was “the greatest bowler of any type the game has ever seen”.

See even Hutton knows a great English XI should have Hobbs and Sutcliffe opening and him in the middle order.

 

[ataraxia]

See even Hutton knows a great English XI should have Hobbs and Sutcliffe opening and him in the middle order.

And Miller doesn't want to bat #5... ?

 

[Nintendo]

Len Hutton and Keith Miller were asked to select their respective ATG England and Australian teams during the 1977 Centenary Test in Melbourne.

This is what they came up with….

01. Jack Hobbs
02. Herbert Sutcliffe
03. Walter Hammond
04. Maurice Leyland
05. Len Hutton
06. Frank Woolley
07. Les Ames
08. George Hirst
09. Wilfred Rhodes
10. Harold Larwood
11. Sydney Barnes


01. Charles Bannerman
02. Victor Trumper
03. Don Bradman
04. Bill Ponsford
05. Stan McCabe
06. Monty Noble
07. Keith Miller
08. Ray Lindwall
09. Don Tallon
10. Clarrie Grimmett
11. Bill O’Reilly


Hutton is showing an obvious Yorkshire bias, although he did say at the time that he specifically picked Maurice Leyland because he “had the jinx on O’Reilly”.

It’s interesting that Hutton preferred Harold Larwood as the “spearhead fast bowler” to either Fred Trueman or Frank Tyson.

I really like Miller’s team, although Bannerman is a bit odd.

Interestingly, Miller remarked that Bill O’Reilly was “the greatest bowler of any type the game has ever seen”.

Who keeps in miller's lineup?

Edit: Skipped over talon at 9, my b.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Stokes is clearly an ATG all rounder unless the wheels fall off during the next few years. Averaged >40 with the bat and <30 with ball for a good percentage of his Test career.

He is only the 4th or 5th best allrounder of his generation, and averagewise is also worse than Axar, CDG, and Mayers and on a par with Green.

 

[The Sean]

Bannerman certainly an interesting one in Nugget's team. The two I'm particularly surprised not to see there are Morris and Harvey.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Ponsford at 4 is interesting. Thought he'd open with Trumper at 4.

 

[HookShot]

Bannerman certainly an interesting one in Nugget's team. The two I'm particularly surprised not to see there are Morris and Harvey.

Miller explains…..

“It’s bloody hard choosing Australia’s opening batsman because there have been so many great one’s: Ponsford, Woodfull, Barnes, Morris, and Bobby Simpson, who was the greatest slip fielder I’ve ever seen. It’s hard to leave any of them out.

I couldn’t contemplate leaving Ponsford out altogether so I’ve chosen him to bat Number 4. That means Victor Trumper opens the innings with Bannerman. I never saw Trumper either, but the stories can’t all be wrong. Anyway, my father saw him bat and said he was as good as Bradman and that will do me.”

Incidently, the journo conducting the interview with Hutton and Miller was Ian Wooldridge

 

[peterhrt]

Until the 1960s and well into the 1970s, English cricket writing in particular was set in the past. Led by the conservative-leaning Daily Telegraph and Cricketer magazine, it believed it was talking to older readers who were more interested in the cricketers of their youth, and those further back in time who their fathers had told them about. Keith Miller worked for the Daily Express for twenty years and would have understood this. Of Hutton's team, only Hammond (briefly) and himself played Test cricket after WWII.

The golden age of cricket was often said to have occurred during the twenty years before 1914. A book with that title covering that period appeared in 1967. Most all-time teams still included WG Grace whose peak occurred during pre-Test days shortly after overarm bowling was legalised.

Nowadays the opposite seems to be true. A commercial media promotes its own product by constantly talking up current players. The likes of Anderson, Root and Stokes receive a level of praise that would have been unthinkable to somebody like Ken Barrington or even Fred Trueman when they were playing. Trueman always felt he was under-appreciated, and no doubt had something to say about Hutton picking five fellow-Yorkshiremen ahead of him.

 

[AndrewB]

An article in Wisden today selecting an All Time XI of players whose Test career was less than ten years. It seems that only post-war players were considered.

Mark Taylor
Conrad Hunte
Michael Vaughan
Kevin Pietersen
Alvin Kallicharan
Tony Greig
Adam Gilchrist
Mitchell Johnson
Andy Roberts
Saqlain Mushtaq
Allan Donald

Other post-war options include Morris, Lawry, Hussey, Harare, Bedser, Davidson and Tyson.

 

[The Sean]

Other post-war options include Morris, Lawry, Hussey, Harare, Bedser, Davidson and Tyson.

Both those openers could easily slot in, and definitely Davo should. Bill Johnston and Neil Adcock can be added to the list as well. There's quite the selection.

 

[Red]

Len Hutton and Keith Miller were asked to select their respective ATG England and Australian teams during the 1977 Centenary Test in Melbourne.

This is what they came up with….

01. Jack Hobbs
02. Herbert Sutcliffe
03. Walter Hammond
04. Maurice Leyland
05. Len Hutton
06. Frank Woolley
07. Les Ames
08. George Hirst
09. Wilfred Rhodes
10. Harold Larwood
11. Sydney Barnes


01. Charles Bannerman
02. Victor Trumper
03. Don Bradman
04. Bill Ponsford
05. Stan McCabe
06. Monty Noble
07. Keith Miller
08. Ray Lindwall
09. Don Tallon
10. Clarrie Grimmett
11. Bill O’Reilly

Alternate XIs with the addition of a few decades to pick from:

G Boycott
G Gooch
K Barrington
J Root
D Gower
I Botham
A Knott
H Larwood
J Laker
A Bedser
J Anderson

B Simpson
B Lawry
R Ponting
S Smith
S Waugh
A Border
A Gilchrist
A Davidson
S Warne
D Lillee
G McGrath