Graeme Smith vs Matthew Hayden

[BazBall21]

Have taken @OverratedSanity’s advice and gone stubborn. Not 100% convinced by Smith.

 

[BazBall21]

If you click on the hyperlink, it's from Statsguru

Thanks mate.

 

[honestbharani]

Welcome back @Himannv . There is a mafia game on.

 

[subshakerz]

Have taken @OverratedSanity’s advice and gone stubborn. Not 100% convinced by Smith.

Switch countries and how well would Hayden and Smith do?

 

[Archer6K]

Just something I found interesting
For Trumper, the average RPW was 26.6 and he averaged 39.04, so he scored on average 1.47 times more than the other batsmen
For Hobbs, the average RPW was 29.82 and he averaged 56.94, so he scored on average 1.91 times more than the other batsmen

 

[BazBall21]

Switch countries and how well would Hayden and Smith do?

I think Hayden would be better in South Africa than Smith was

 

[subshakerz]

Tbf I think the conditions were more bowler-friendly in the 2005 Ashes than SA’s tours of England.

That is fine but Hayden didn't succeed in the 2005 Ashes or Ashes 2001 or both series he played in NZ.

Smith did well in all three tours in England and all two tours of NZ.

 

[trundler]

This is a joke comparison, right? It's obviously Smith by a long way. If Hayden had been born ten years either side of when he was, he would have probably struggled to make it as a Test match batsman.

If Smith had debuted 10 years later he'd average 30 with all the quality left arm seamers around. Hayden is a cut and dry HTB but then Smith struggled at home, which are the toughest conditions he faced. He cashed in big time on roads away like anyone else and it's not like he had less obvious technical weaknesses compared to Hayden. I'm not convinced there's a chasm between the two at all. Smith had a marginally longer career but then Hayden went big much more frequently.

 

[subshakerz]

I think Hayden would be better in South Africa than Smith was

Highly doubt that he would play last enough to have a career as an opener in SA debuting in the mid-90s.

 

[Howe_zat]

Which batsman would rank the highest in this?

Bradman, almost certainly, assuming you keep it to Tests and discount anyone with less than a handful of innings.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Great stats. Is there a website for them or did you work it out yourself?

The averages runs per wicket in Test history: 30.18

All Tests Hayden played where RPW was below 30.18

1st Inns	2nd Inns	Opposition	Location	Runs	Wkts	RPW
119		v Pakistan	Sharjah	422	29	14.55
35	24	v India	Wankhede	605	40	15.12
37	2	v Sri Lanka	Darwin	667	40	16.67
44		v West Indies	Brisbane	538	30	17.93
0	14	v South Africa	Gqeberha	756	38	19.89
5	0	v West Indies	Melbourne	683	34	20.08
8	0	v New Zealand	Brisbane	815	40	20.37
33	42	v England	Nottingham	695	33	21.06
111	77	v ICC World XI	Sydney	878	40	21.95
12	34	v England	Lord's	909	40	22.72
94	32	v South Africa	Cape Town	805	33	24.39
153		v England	Melbourne	739	30	24.63
13	30	v West Indies	Melbourne	900	35	25.71
10	0	v South Africa	Centurion	828	32	25.87
0	6*	v England	Lord's	829	32	25.9
119	28*	v India	Wankhede	791	30	26.36
2	37	v New Zealand	Hamilton	925	34	27.2
69		v West Indies	Perth	765	28	27.32
54	5	v Sri Lanka	Kandy	1097	40	27.42
125		v West Indies	Adelaide	851	30	28.36
4	10	v Pakistan	Perth	993	35	28.37
124	47	v India	Melbourne	1051	37	28.4
4	34	v Pakistan	Colombo (PSS)	1147	40	28.67
28	0	v South Africa	Durban	1008	35	28.8
89		v Pakistan	Sharjah	868	30	28.93
33	23*	v England	Sydney	877	30	29.23
0	47	v West Indies	Perth	878	30	29.26
0	31	v England	Birmingham	1176	40	29.4
26	30	v India	Bengaluru	1187	40	29.67

All Tests Smith played where RPW was below 30.18:

1st Inns	2nd Inns	Opposition	Location	Runs	Wkts	RPW
9	37	v India	Durban	779	40	19.47
64	33	v Pakistan	Cape Town	687	35	19.62
37	101*	v Australia	Cape Town	663	32	20.71
5	10	v India	Johannesburg	847	40	21.17
12	0	v Australia	Sydney	878	40	21.95
63	68	v New Zealand	Johannesburg	808	36	22.44
13	55*	v New Zealand	Hamilton	709	31	22.87
73		v Sri Lanka	Johannesburg	708	30	23.6
1		v New Zealand	Cape Town	667	28	23.82
70	10	v West Indies	Bridgetown	787	33	23.84
69	35	v India	Kanpur	775	32	24.21
19	16	v Australia	Cape Town	805	33	24.39
61		v Sri Lanka	Centurion	741	30	24.7
2		v New Zealand	Centurion	707	28	25.25
45	7	v New Zealand	Centurion	1022	40	25.55
24	52	v Pakistan	Johannesburg	845	33	25.6
15	26	v Sri Lanka	Durban	1026	40	25.65
28	11	v West Indies	Gqeberha	1038	40	25.95
28	10	v Pakistan	Gqeberha	911	35	26.02
35	5	v England	Nottingham	1056	40	26.4
5	58	v India	Durban	1012	38	26.63
5		v Pakistan	Centurion	800	30	26.66
16	13*	v Pakistan	Durban	824	30	27.46
19	29	v Pakistan	Cape Town	1015	36	28.19
105		v England	Johannesburg	772	27	28.59
1	42	v Australia	Durban	1008	35	28.8
1	9	v New Zealand	Johannesburg	938	32	29.31
15	32	v Pakistan	Abu Dhabi	968	33	29.33
0	69	v Australia	Johannesburg	1184	40	29.6
74	2	v England	Cape Town	1130	38	29.73
46	0	v England	The Oval	1026	34	30.17

Matthew Hayden: 1904 runs @ 38.86, 6 hundreds
Graeme Smith: 1690 runs @ 31.89, 2 hundreds

 

[subshakerz]

Did Smith underperform at home? Yes.

However, having watched both, I would put him ahead of Hayden in the ability to play the moving ball, whereas Hayden was a better player of spin. Being an opening batsmen, the former is more important.

Both batsmen statspadded and both failed somewhat against high quality attacks. However, to me, Smith was a better pressure player. Like Border, a lot of his run came with SA's back against the wall, either faced with a big score or in the fourth innings or the match in the balance.

Hayden to me had more of a cushion which made it easier for him to bat carefreely. He had a few top knocks too, but Smith to me was under more consistent pressure.

 

[trundler]

Smith had plenty of cushion throughout his career. Citation needed on him being better against quality attacks. I don't think that's true at all.

 

[subshakerz]

Smith had plenty of cushion throughout his career. Citation needed on him being better against quality attacks. I don't think that's true at all.

I said they both underperformed against quality attacks.

I am saying a lot of Smith's big runs came at critical points for SA, he was more of a pressure player than Hayden, especially considering he was an opener and captain.

Off the top of my head, he had four tons in 50/50 type chases, a century at Lords when SA were following on to save a game and a century in Adelaide as SA were faced with a mountain score against Australia. That's ignoring his double tons which he scored more than Hayden too.

 

[a massive zebra]

Just something I found interesting
For Trumper, the average RPW was 26.6 and he averaged 39.04, so he scored on average 1.47 times more than the other batsman
For Hobbs, the average RPW was 29.82 and he averaged 56.94, so he scored on average 1.91 times more than the other batsman

When comparing the average RPW with individual batsmens averages, you should probably exclude the individual in question from the RPW calculation. The average RPW in matches involving Bradman is very high, primarily because Bradman himself increased the overall WPM significantly, which is largely a reflection of his freakish ability rather than very favourable conditions.

In other words, the higher RPW in matches involving Hobbs might simply be a result of his more prolific run scoring in comparison to Trumper, rather than a reflection of more batting friendly conditions.

 

[trundler]

I said they both underperformed against quality attacks.

I am saying a lot of Smith's big runs came at critical points for SA, he was more of a pressure player than Hayden, especially considering he was an opener and captain.

Off the top of my head, he had four tons in 50/50 type chases, a century at Lords when SA were following on to save a game and a century in Adelaide as SA were faced with a mountain score against Australia. That's ignoring his double tons which he scored more than Hayden too. You can say that Smith was better because of intangibles or whatever but in no universe does he blow out Hayden as people imply.

Tbf an opener has the least access to soft runs of anyone. Unless you're leading by 300, an opener doesn't really have the opportunity to downhill ski. Setting up the game is just as important though Smith's 4th innings performances are clearly a point in his favour. Also, Hayden was certainly a better player of pace bounce. From memory, Smith was more prone to getting squared up.

Ftr, I think it's fair to consider Smith because he was a better player under pressure but I disagree that he's leagues ahead. Also, I get the impression that people would rate Hayden higher if he averaged 58 away and 41 at home which doesn't make sense to me. You still end up with the same overall output.

 

[Coronis]

Just something I found interesting
For Trumper, the average RPW was 26.6 and he averaged 39.04, so he scored on average 1.47 times more than the other batsman
For Hobbs, the average RPW was 29.82 and he averaged 56.94, so he scored on average 1.91 times more than the other batsman

Pfft don’t overrate Trumper he only averaged 33 opening.

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Graeme Smith's 4th innings record edges it for me , mentality monster , 4 test hundreds in the 4th innings , only Tendulkar scored more 4th innings runs .

 

[BazBall21]

The averages runs per wicket in Test history: 30.18

All Tests Hayden played where RPW was below 30.18

1st Inns	2nd Inns	Opposition	Location	Runs	Wkts	RPW
119		v Pakistan	Sharjah	422	29	14.55
35	24	v India	Wankhede	605	40	15.12
37	2	v Sri Lanka	Darwin	667	40	16.67
44		v West Indies	Brisbane	538	30	17.93
0	14	v South Africa	Gqeberha	756	38	19.89
5	0	v West Indies	Melbourne	683	34	20.08
8	0	v New Zealand	Brisbane	815	40	20.37
33	42	v England	Nottingham	695	33	21.06
111	77	v ICC World XI	Sydney	878	40	21.95
12	34	v England	Lord's	909	40	22.72
94	32	v South Africa	Cape Town	805	33	24.39
153		v England	Melbourne	739	30	24.63
13	30	v West Indies	Melbourne	900	35	25.71
10	0	v South Africa	Centurion	828	32	25.87
0	6*	v England	Lord's	829	32	25.9
119	28*	v India	Wankhede	791	30	26.36
2	37	v New Zealand	Hamilton	925	34	27.2
69		v West Indies	Perth	765	28	27.32
54	5	v Sri Lanka	Kandy	1097	40	27.42
125		v West Indies	Adelaide	851	30	28.36
4	10	v Pakistan	Perth	993	35	28.37
124	47	v India	Melbourne	1051	37	28.4
4	34	v Pakistan	Colombo (PSS)	1147	40	28.67
28	0	v South Africa	Durban	1008	35	28.8
89		v Pakistan	Sharjah	868	30	28.93
33	23*	v England	Sydney	877	30	29.23
0	47	v West Indies	Perth	878	30	29.26
0	31	v England	Birmingham	1176	40	29.4
26	30	v India	Bengaluru	1187	40	29.67

All Tests Smith played where RPW was below 30.18:

1st Inns	2nd Inns	Opposition	Location	Runs	Wkts	RPW
9	37	v India	Durban	779	40	19.47
64	33	v Pakistan	Cape Town	687	35	19.62
37	101*	v Australia	Cape Town	663	32	20.71
5	10	v India	Johannesburg	847	40	21.17
12	0	v Australia	Sydney	878	40	21.95
63	68	v New Zealand	Johannesburg	808	36	22.44
13	55*	v New Zealand	Hamilton	709	31	22.87
73		v Sri Lanka	Johannesburg	708	30	23.6
1		v New Zealand	Cape Town	667	28	23.82
70	10	v West Indies	Bridgetown	787	33	23.84
69	35	v India	Kanpur	775	32	24.21
19	16	v Australia	Cape Town	805	33	24.39
61		v Sri Lanka	Centurion	741	30	24.7
2		v New Zealand	Centurion	707	28	25.25
45	7	v New Zealand	Centurion	1022	40	25.55
24	52	v Pakistan	Johannesburg	845	33	25.6
15	26	v Sri Lanka	Durban	1026	40	25.65
28	11	v West Indies	Gqeberha	1038	40	25.95
28	10	v Pakistan	Gqeberha	911	35	26.02
35	5	v England	Nottingham	1056	40	26.4
5	58	v India	Durban	1012	38	26.63
5		v Pakistan	Centurion	800	30	26.66
16	13*	v Pakistan	Durban	824	30	27.46
19	29	v Pakistan	Cape Town	1015	36	28.19
105		v England	Johannesburg	772	27	28.59
1	42	v Australia	Durban	1008	35	28.8
1	9	v New Zealand	Johannesburg	938	32	29.31
15	32	v Pakistan	Abu Dhabi	968	33	29.33
0	69	v Australia	Johannesburg	1184	40	29.6
74	2	v England	Cape Town	1130	38	29.73
46	0	v England	The Oval	1026	34	30.17

Matthew Hayden: 1904 runs @ 38.86, 6 hundreds
Graeme Smith: 1690 runs @ 31.89, 2 hundreds

Hayden > Smith.

 

[BazBall21]

I don’t think Smith would have been much better than Kirsten in the 90s but Hayden was lucky to barely play in the 90s which protected his record from that early career hinderance and then play 89% of his career in the flat tracks era. So nearly all his career was a batting era in a dominant team and an inflated percentage of his career was his prime years. His weaknesses against pace and movement are well-documented. Smith is a little overrated on here imho but it’s probably still him.

I take this back. Not the part about Smith being overrated. About the part that he’s probably better than the best opener of the 21st century.