Official - Road to Ashes 2023

[Gob]

The main thing you're indicating is that you didn't watch a ball of the Hobart test.

Or any test

 

[Molehill]

The main thing you're indicating is that you didn't watch a ball of the Hobart test.

I saw quite a bit of it despite it being mostly in the middle of the night. I also saw all his desperate performances for Sussex in the County Championship (I'm guessing you didn't). Who knows which Head turns up this summer, but there's just as much chance as the Sussex version as the Hobart one. Most Sussex fans celebrated when he managed to get his partner pregnant and so dipped out on returning for a 2nd year, Pujara turned out to be a far better replacement.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

nobody cares about Woakes

Factually incorrect.

 

[social]

Factually incorrect.

Factually true

He’s a very ordinary international cricketer and has been for the majority of his career

Got smoked in Australia & somehow picked for the WI where he failed again

If England are forced to pick him at age 34, advantage Australia

 

[Prince EWS]

Factually true

He’s a very ordinary international cricketer and has been for the majority of his career

Got smoked in Australia & somehow picked for the WI where he failed again

If England are forced to pick him at age 34, advantage Australia

Red Ink Squid cares about Woakes.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Factually true

He’s a very ordinary international cricketer and has been for the majority of his career

Got smoked in Australia & somehow picked for the WI where he failed again

If England are forced to pick him at age 34, advantage Australia

Better allround stats in England than Richard Hadlee in New Zealand.

I think all fair and unbiased observers would rank the two of roughly equal stature in International cricket.

 

[Prince EWS]

While Woakes is obviously better in home conditions than elsewhere, I do think his current record is somewhat of an anomaly and if he played an infinite amount of Tests it wouldn't really look quite like that.

That said, if people want to complain about him being picked in away Tests because of his horrible record overseas, the same people should equally argue for him to be one of the first on the team sheet in important home Tests because he's totally h4x.

In fact I might even go as far as to say that Stokes should be dropped and Woakes should be installed as captain.

 

[Molehill]

Better allround stats in England than Richard Hadlee in New Zealand.

I think all fair and unbiased observers would rank the two of roughly equal stature in International cricket.

Sorry, it turns out the only way to rank an International Cricketer is how they've performed in Hobart!! As Hadlee never bowled there, he is removed from the discussion.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

In fact I might even go as far as to say that Stokes should be dropped and Woakes should be installed as captain.

This is a good point. Stokes just lost a Test after he enforced the follow on.

Chris Woakes has never lost a Test as captain.

 

[Starfighter]

Better allround stats in England than Richard Hadlee in New Zealand.

I think all fair and unbiased observers would rank the two of roughly equal stature in International cricket.

I know you're being sarcastic here but still silly. Barring injuries or a classically English approach to select bowlers by their batting I think Woakes' test career is done. Robinson is clearly ahead of him. Even Potts (who I don't rate at all) is a clear rival, not least having advantage of youth. And there's Wood too.

England's bowling comes down to which of Broad and Robinson is picked unless they go in with four seamers. They would be silly to omit Archer, who is a very dangerous bowler when fit.

 

[Starfighter]

I saw quite a bit of it despite it being mostly in the middle of the night. I also saw all his desperate performances for Sussex in the County Championship (I'm guessing you didn't). Who knows which Head turns up this summer, but there's just as much chance as the Sussex version as the Hobart one. Most Sussex fans celebrated when he managed to get his partner pregnant and so dipped out on returning for a 2nd year, Pujara turned out to be a far better replacement.

Oh I follow the County Championship.

Firstly, I think it might be worthwhile noting Head averaged of 20 with sr of 39 against India in 20/21 (and looked every bit as bad as that suggests). So it's not inconceivable he could have made changes to his game that allowed him to smash England's bowlers in possibly the most stereotypically English conditions ever presented in Australia. I hadn't seen anything in his prior performances to suggest he could, but he did. Maybe the slow pace of the pitches will catch him out but that remains to be seen.

Pujara has pretty much sucked in test cricket since his County term. Even his performance in England that summer was mediocre (34 with no centuries). So I don't think this is the good argument you think it is.

 

[GIMH]

I think Head’s innings in Hobart was worthy of praise and fair to say it was on a seaming track. But as I said elsewhere, playing away isn’t just about mastering the pitch. Even aside from all the mental aspects of playing away in sports, especially international sports, I’ve always felt in England it’s the overhead and atmospheric conditions as much as it is the pitch that batsmen can struggle with. Head’s innings in Hobart doesn’t prove he can do it in England, because it wasn’t in England, but fair enough to think he’s got a better chance than previously based on such innings.

 

[the big bambino]

It wasn't just Hobart. All the pitches in the last ashes were bowler friendly.

 

[Spark]

I think Head’s innings in Hobart was worthy of praise and fair to say it was on a seaming track. But as I said elsewhere, playing away isn’t just about mastering the pitch. Even aside from all the mental aspects of playing away in sports, especially international sports, I’ve always felt in England it’s the overhead and atmospheric conditions as much as it is the pitch that batsmen can struggle with. Head’s innings in Hobart doesn’t prove he can do it in England, because it wasn’t in England, but fair enough to think he’s got a better chance than previously based on such innings.

Yeah this is all fair, but at the same you can't just say "it doesn't count" as a good innings against a good attack in tough conditions because it wasn't in the geographically right place.

 

[Brook's side]

While Woakes is obviously better in home conditions than elsewhere, I do think his current record is somewhat of an anomaly and if he played an infinite amount of Tests it wouldn't really look quite like that.

That said, if people want to complain about him being picked in away Tests because of his horrible record overseas, the same people should equally argue for him to be one of the first on the team sheet in important home Tests because he's totally h4x.

In fact I might even go as far as to say that Stokes should be dropped and Woakes should be installed as captain.

Woakes and Crawley up top you reckon?

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah this is all fair, but at the same you can't just say "it doesn't count" as a good innings against a good attack in tough conditions because it wasn't in the geographically right place.

Yeah everything always counts, just with different coefficients.

Head still has big question marks over his ability to perform overseas, but posting ad nauseam about his 6 games for Sussex or whatever is dumb. They count, but it just makes what Head is going to do uncertain rather than set in stone failure. He's clearly improved since then - whether it translates is... why we watch cricket.

 

[Spark]

The thing is, you can definitely say that he doesn't look technically up to it, he looks terrible, he plays with really hard hands and no foot movement. I'd probably agree! The Travis Head experience is that he looks absolutely rank awful for his first 20 balls, somehow flukes his way to about 15*, and then starts hammering fours like he's playing park cricket. I can't quite remember watching anything like it but it seems very, very effective.

 

[social]

Head has changed his game a lot

His scoring zone on the offside used to be through cover point but now hits the same ball past mid off

He’s a serious player and one of the best batsmen in the world

 

[Molehill]

The thing is, you can definitely say that he doesn't look technically up to it, he looks terrible, he plays with really hard hands and no foot movement. I'd probably agree! The Travis Head experience is that he looks absolutely rank awful for his first 20 balls, somehow flukes his way to about 15*, and then starts hammering fours like he's playing park cricket. I can't quite remember watching anything like it but it seems very, very effective.

To be fair, Zak Crawley can do that too, it's just he hasn't made it to 20 balls for flippin' ages!

I'm not using the Sussex Experience as a guarantee he's going to fail, but at the same time, what happened in Hobart is no guarantee to success either.

I know he'd played well elsewhere (and I think the double ton in the 50 over game was perhaps the turning point for him in terms of confidence), but Hobart was a dead rubber Test against a team frankly ready to go home (even more so than usual with all the Covid protocols). He obviously got a ton at the Gabba, but even then he came to the wicket with Aus already 40 runs ahead and only 3 down.

Will he score runs if he comes in at say 30-3 at Edgbaston? What happened at Hobart has zero bearing at this point.

 

[social]

To be fair, Zak Crawley can do that too, it's just he hasn't made it to 20 balls for flippin' ages!

I'm not using the Sussex Experience as a guarantee he's going to fail, but at the same time, what happened in Hobart is no guarantee to success either.

I know he'd played well elsewhere (and I think the double ton in the 50 over game was perhaps the turning point for him in terms of confidence), but Hobart was a dead rubber Test against a team frankly ready to go home (even more so than usual with all the Covid protocols). He obviously got a ton at the Gabba, but even then he came to the wicket with Aus already 40 runs ahead and only 3 down.

Will he score runs if he comes in at say 30-3 at Edgbaston? What happened at Hobart has zero bearing at this point.

Crawley isn’t in the same class as Head

He will be dropped before the Ashes while Head is the 4th ranked batsman in the world

Totally different levels