Which team is currently the best, in 2023?

[subshakerz]

So, you want to consider India's test losses and undermine India's achievements conveniently ignoring that they did not even lose that series and also completely ignore India's home record while you want to consider all of England's achievements against 2 countries and ignore their losses to prove they are better.

Bias can't be bigger than this. Just accept that you are biased against India and move on.

Let us just agree between us what we agree is the recent form to assess for each team.

England - Stokes' run
Australia - Cummins' run
India - ?

 

[CricAddict]

Let us just agree between us what we agree is the recent form to assess for each team.

England - Stokes' run
Australia - Cummins' run
India - ?

You choose any timeframe and compare the test series results for India and England in that timeframe and show us that England's record is better. It is fine if you take the timeframe as when Stokes took over too. Compare India's results in the same period.

I can't put it simpler than this. You are just swayed by bazball like a lot of other excited people. But India have maintained superiority in tests for quite a long period of time and still continue to do because of which India is better. One series loss in SA cannot take away all the other achievements and one series win for England in Pakistan doesn't suddenly make them the better team.

I have always maintained that this England team can potentially overtake India but they still have a long way to go and prove. As of now, it is India which is the better team.

 

[srbhkshk]

See from an Indian POV (or at least mine - I assume there's at least some Indians who disagree) the annoying thing about these discussions is that they start with an inherent assumption of India's home record not being considered at all.

Our home record is SOOO much superior to other teams that even if we manage an away record half as good as any other team our overall record ends up being superior anyway, England drops tests to every nation that tours them, Australia has lost two consecutive home series to India - If that was happening to India the Indian fans would currently be talking about the death of cricket in India.

 

[Bahnz]

You choose any timeframe and compare the test series results for India and England in that timeframe and show us that England's record is better. It is fine if you take the timeframe as when Stokes took over too. Compare India's results in the same period.

I can't put it simpler than this. You are just swayed by bazball like a lot of other excited people. But India have maintained superiority in tests for quite a long period of time and still continue to do because of which India is better. One series loss in SA cannot take away all the other achievements and one series win for England in Pakistan doesn't suddenly make them the better team.

I have always maintained that this England team can potentially overtake India but they still have a long way to go and prove. As of now, it is India which is the better team.

June 2022 to now - Englands win % is 91% including a win over India. India’s win % in the same period is 80%.

 

[Flem274*]

good grief you people have spent 26 pages bickering about which of the 3 evil teams is the most broadly competent.

the answer is that they all must be destroyed.

 

[anil1405]

good grief you people have spent 26 pages bickering about which of the 3 evil teams is the most broadly competent.

the answer is that they all must be destroyed.

Like NZ's test success trajectory since the last WTC final?

 

[Bahnz]

See from an Indian POV (or at least mine - I assume there's at least some Indians who disagree) the annoying thing about these discussions is that they start with an inherent assumption of India's home record not being considered at all.

Our home record is SOOO much superior to other teams that even if we manage an away record half as good as any other team our overall record ends up being superior anyway, England drops tests to every nation that tours them, Australia has lost two consecutive home series to India - If that was happening to India the Indian fans would currently be talking about the death of cricket in India.

India’s home record since 2012 is indeed amazing, but could an argument potentially be made that it’s at least partially a sign of the on-average relative weakness of the other sub-continent sides and the ban on tests v Pakistan? In recent years in particular, the average quality of the non-England SENA sides has been definitely better than the non-India SC sides, resulting in series between them being a lot more competitive than series between India and their Asian ‘rivals’.

 

[CricAddict]

June 2022 to now - Englands win % is 91% including a win over India. India’s win % in the same period is 80%.

I did mention test series result and not win%. In that timeframe,

England has home wins against SA and NZ, away win vs Pakistan and a drawn series vs India at home.
India has just 2 finished series in this time. One away win vs Bangladesh and a drawn series vs England away.

Yes, like you said, if we have to take win% alone as the criteria, then England wins.

 

[Bahnz]

It’s not a drawn series though. India won the 2021 series and then England won a one-off test in July. Calling it a drawn series is pretty obtuse given that the coaches, captains and XI’s had all changed in the intervening 12 months.

 

[CricAddict]

It’s not a drawn series though. It’s a one off test that England won. Calling it a drawn series is pretty obtuse given that the coaches, captains and XI’s had all changed in the intervening 12 months.

Yes, I am too fine with calling this as a one-off test and the 2-1 lead India had prior to that as a series win in England. But not sure many will agree to that viewpoint.

 

[Flem274*]

Like NZ's test success trajectory since the last WTC final?

even harder

 

[subshakerz]

Yes, I am too fine with calling this as a one-off test and the 2-1 lead India had prior to that as a series win in England. But not sure many will agree to that viewpoint.

Lets just count India's draw in England onwards for their recent form. Agreed?

 

[srbhkshk]

India’s home record since 2012 is indeed amazing, but could an argument potentially be made that it’s at least partially a sign of the on-average relative weakness of the other sub-continent sides and the ban on tests v Pakistan? In recent years in particular, the average quality of the non-England SENA sides has been definitely better than the non-India SC sides, resulting in series between them being a lot more competitive than series between India and their Asian ‘rivals’.

I am sure it's at least partly a factor but it doesn't come close to compensating for the humongous gap that exists.

Except for Australia all of the other non-SC sides have actually dropped home tests to non-India SC sides, England have lost home tests to Pak and SL, SA to SL and NZ to Bang even in their weak state, India at the same time have not actually dropped any tests to either SL or Bang even though it should at least theoretically be easier for them to compete.

And even if we remove the comparatively weaker non-SC sides from the discussion entirely - India has dropped 2 home tests to the SENA sides in the last decade while winning 10 away from home.

 

[CricAddict]

Lets just count India's draw in England onwards for their recent form. Agreed?

Yes, like I said, any time frame ok for me. For the timeframe you have mentioned, I have already shown the results in post 508.

 

[honestbharani]

India’s home record since 2012 is indeed amazing, but could an argument potentially be made that it’s at least partially a sign of the on-average relative weakness of the other sub-continent sides and the ban on tests v Pakistan? In recent years in particular, the average quality of the non-England SENA sides has been definitely better than the non-India SC sides, resulting in series between them being a lot more competitive than series between India and their Asian ‘rivals’.

But teams keep winning series in Pak and SL. So it cant be that simple for sure.

 

[Bahnz]

I am sure it's at least partly a factor but it doesn't come close to compensating for the humongous gap that exists.

Except for Australia all of the other non-SC sides have actually dropped home tests to non-India SC sides, England have lost home tests to Pak and SL, SA to SL and NZ to Bang even in their weak state, India at the same time have not actually dropped any tests to either SL or Bang even though it should at least theoretically be easier for them to compete.

And even if we remove the comparatively weaker non-SC sides from the discussion entirely - India has dropped 2 home tests to the SENA sides in the last decade while winning 10 away from home.

Yeah, probably fair. Though again, team records over the past decade is a bit besides the point as to the question of who is the best side right now. As noted, that Bangerz test aside NZ has been a slaughterhouse for touring Asian sides since 2014, but I don’t think too many people would cite that as evidence that they should be in the conversation for top dog atm.

 

[srbhkshk]

Yeah, probably fair. Though again, team records over the past decade is a bit besides the point as to the question of who is the best side right now. As noted, that Bangerz test aside NZ has been a slaughterhouse for touring Asian sides since 2014, but I don’t think too many people would cite that as evidence that they should be in the conversation for top dog atm.

Agree about the relevance part, but it's tangentially related in the sense that at least for now it doesn't seem like India's home dominance is going anywhere, but the whole discussion about the better team has been focused on who can do better away from home. Like even if it's true that current England will outdo current India away - is that really enough compensation for how much more current India will win at home?

 

[subshakerz]

Yes, like I said, any time frame ok for me. For the timeframe you have mentioned, I have already shown the results in post 508.

In the timeframes:

India / post-England 2021 tour - Draw in England, loss in SA, whitewashes vs Bangladesh and SL, current series vs Australia
England post Stokes - Whitewash at home vs NZ, test victory against India at home, series victory at home vs SA, away whitewash vs Pakistan, current series vs NZ
Australia post Cummins - Near whitewash at home vs England, away victory vs Pakistan, away draw vs SL, home victories vs WI and SA, current series vs India away

So based on the above how is India ahead?

 

[CricAddict]

In the timeframe:

India / post-England 2021 tour - Draw in England, loss in SA, home whitewashes vs Bangladesh and SL, current series vs Australia
England post Stokes - Whitewash at home vs NZ, test victory against India at home, series victory at home vs SA, away whitewash vs Pakistan, current series vs NZ
Australia post Cummins - Near whitewash at home vs England, away victory vs Pakistan, away draw vs SL, home victories vs WI and SA, current series vs India away

So based on the above how is India ahead?

The timeframe from the draw is June 2022. Are you shifting goal posts again? To be clear, tell me exact month and year that you are using as the start and let us compare series result from that time.

 

[PaulLennon]

In the timeframe:

India / post-England 2021 tour - Draw in England, loss in SA, home whitewashes vs Bangladesh and SL, current series vs Australia
England post Stokes - Whitewash at home vs NZ, test victory against India at home, series victory at home vs SA, away whitewash vs Pakistan, current series vs NZ
Australia post Cummins - Near whitewash at home vs England, away victory vs Pakistan, away draw vs SL, home victories vs WI and SA, current series vs India away

So based on the above how is India ahead?

These two include the same match but considered as a draw for one and a victory for the other.

And India's win in Bang was away.