Which team is currently the best, in 2023?

[Socerer 01]

England seem to have a killer instinct and fearlessness that India lack tho which is why I find them so impressive.

By right, the no.1 position shouldn't have been a debate, India should have won in SA and closed their series against England last year and be considered one of the greatest teams ever.

the small matter of covid didn’t help in the latter

and even then you’d claim that it was Root’s england and not Stokes so it doesn’t count

i’ll wait before saying england have killer instinct and fearlessness. same words were used for India on both their bgt wins, england tour and in the end they didn’t have same intensity in SA. its tough to maintain such intensity and standards for a long time

 

[Socerer 01]

And no, it's not clear that Australia is so behind them at all. It's weird seeing how sharply the mood swings here on CW. A few weeks ago they were considered the hot favorites for the Ashes and now they are not. Why? They are a strong side, it's just that they are faced with an impossible tasks atm to win in India.

If they pick a victory in one of these last tests to salvage some dignity, win the WTC and then win in the Ashes, suddenly their case seems clearer.

now this i agree with. current Australia side is woefully underprepared and underequipped to deal with India at home. full strength Australia with the benefit of having done proper Ashes prep will be more of a challenge to England than people believe

 

[PaulLennon]

It's a self serving standard to neutralize England's run of success. I mean, whitewashing Pakistan and NZ away is an incredible achievement and we wouldn't hear the end of it if it was India.

I mean India have whitewashed WI, SL and Bang away. Aus and Eng couldn't win in Bang. Aus couldn't win in SL. Eng lost in WI.

 

[PaulLennon]

I mean you're clearly just assuming that people aren't going to do that because the only oppositon India have done better than England against in recent years is really Australia. Which is presumably why you stopped there and just said 'theorem over' repeatedly like a broken robot in a doctor who episode.

vs Pakistan - England won home and away, so did Australia, India not prepared to play them
vs Sri Lanka - England won home and away, Australia won at home but drew away, India won at home and haven't played there
vs New Zealand - England won home and away, Australia cbf, India won at home but lost away
vs South Africa - England won home and away, Australia won at home and lost away, India won at home and lost away
vs West Indies - England won at home and lost away, Australia won at home and away, India haven't played them

You can use England's loss in the West Indies to beat them with if you like, or pretend like India would easily top their results in Pakistan or Sri Lanka, but it would be a lot more convincing if India had actually done that recently.

I don't even disagree with the general point that India's results are better than England's. They are. You've just made a pointless exaggeration for some strange reason while acting like you have proven something. That's a pretty weird thing to do, isn't it?

vs SL - Ind won away 3-0 last series
vs WI - Ind won both home and away (both whitewashes)
vs Bang - Ind won both home and away (both whitewashes), Eng and Aus drew there

because the only opposition India have done better than England against in recent years is really Australia - And WI and Bangladesh

Eng have done better vs SA and NZ
Ind have done better vs Bang, WI and Aus

Ind don't play Pak but even if you consider Pak for Eng, against each other India has done better - winning the home series and drawing the away one.

 

[PaulLennon]

Not Stokes' England. Do we have to explain again?

Rohit's India has a 100% win record lol if we are playing that game.

Stoke's England have played well but their wins have all been at home or against weaker teams away.

Pakistan have been whitewashed by SL at home, NZ 2-1 and Australia 1-0 before England's 3-0. They are just a weak weak team.
NZ have been struggling post WTC final and have won a some total of 0 series post that, even drawing vs Bang at home.

There is no indication that Stoke's England will not be demolished in Australia or India like they have been for a while now. Similarly no indication that they will win at home against both these teams, like they failed to do before.

In fact, Kohli's India had an even more impressive run from 2015 to 2017 where they defeated SL 2-1 (away), SA 3-0, WI 2-0 (away), NZ 3-0, Eng 4-0, Bang 1-0, Aus 2-1, SL 3-0 (away), SL 1-0. They defeated every team at home and won all their away series against teams which are a good match up for them away (SL/WI).

 

[PaulLennon]

And tbh it's not like Root's team was particularly bad. 2021-2022 they just came up against matchups they almost always lose which is Ind away, Aus away and WI away. I would expect Stoke's teams to lose these as well.

That team had won 3-1 in SA and 2-0 in SL and 1-0 vs Pak at home.

Conditions matter. You cannot assume stuff just because a team has doing well at home or away against certain opposition. Australia has come to India off a Pakistan win and successful home series. Look at them now.

Even the Ind team from 2015-17 which had the great run lost in SA and Eng. The 2011 Ind team were whitewashed in England. The 2012 Eng team were whitewashed in Pakistan. You cannot just PRESUME stuff.

I'm also assuming that you presume Pakistan would not lose any of the three home series against the SENA teams in 2022?

Ind is best right now because the actually DID WIN in Aus twice and DREW in England. These are not hypotheses.

 

[subshakerz]

And tbh it's not like Root's team was particularly bad. 2021-2022 they just came up against matchups they almost always lose which is Ind away, Aus away and WI away. I would expect Stoke's teams to lose these as well.

That team had won 3-1 in SA and 2-0 in SL and 1-0 vs Pak at home.

Conditions matter. You cannot assume stuff just because a team has doing well at home or away against certain opposition. Australia has come to India off a Pakistan win and successful home series. Look at them now.

Even the Ind team from 2015-17 which had the great run lost in SA and Eng. The 2011 Ind team were whitewashed in England. The 2012 Eng team were whitewashed in Pakistan. You cannot just PRESUME stuff.

I'm also assuming that you presume Pakistan would not lose any of the three home series against the SENA teams in 2022?

Ind is best right now because the actually DID WIN in Aus twice and DREW in England. These are not hypotheses.

And they lost in SA to a young team in the same time, that's also not a hypothesis. Again, another poster trying to pretend India have a clear cut case by just ignoring it's losses. Neither Australia or England would have lost to SA. So we are dealing with three teams each with their own unique weaknesses. At least acknowledge that.

 

[subshakerz]

Rohit's India has a 100% win record lol if we are playing that game.

Stoke's England have played well but their wins have all been at home or against weaker teams away.

Just trying to diminish some legitimately impressive achievements by England. The Pakistan whitewash could easily have been a 1-0 or 0-0 result if any other team played.

NZ may be on the decline but they are not suddenly a weak team. India would struggle to even draw there much less whitewash.

There is no indication that Stoke's England will not be demolished in Australia or India like they have been for a while now. Similarly no indication that they will win at home against both these teams, like they failed to do before.

Again, disingenuous here. Stokes' team beating India in a canter last year is a pretty big indication how a series would have gone.

 

[PaulLennon]

And they lost in SA to a young team in the same time, that's also not a hypothesis. Again, another poster trying to pretend India have a clear cut case by just ignoring it's losses. Neither Australia or England would have lost to SA. So we are dealing with three teams each with their own unique weaknesses. At least acknowledge that.

And England lost in WI. That's not a hypothesis. Ind whitewashed them away. Also not a hypothesis.
Australia lost their last series in SA 1-3. Again not a hypothesis.
Australia drew in SL 1-1. Not a hypothesis. Ind won 3-0. Again not a hypothesis.

You are just cherry picking data to make India look bad.
Nowhere did I ignore India's losses. I listed out every team matchup and Ind clearly trumps both Eng and Aus.

we are dealing with three teams each with their own unique weaknesses. At least acknowledge that. - Yes, but India's weakness are less.

 

[PaulLennon]

Just trying to diminish some legitimately impressive achievements by England. The Pakistan whitewash could easily have been a 1-0 or 0-0 result if any other team played.

NZ may be on the decline but they are not suddenly a weak team. India would struggle to even draw there much less whitewash.


Again, disingenuous here. Stokes' team beating India in a canter last year is a pretty big indication how a series would have gone.

Just trying to diminish some legitimately impressive achievements by England. The Pakistan whitewash could easily have been a 1-0 or 0-0 result if any other team played. - Considering the fact that Pak lost 0-1 to Aus, lost 1-2 to NZ, 0-2 to SL, drew 0-0 to NZ, drew 1-1 in WI, drew 1-1 in SL, lost 0-1 in Eng and have been whitewashed in NZ, SA and Aus I do not think so. The Pakistan test cricket team are a legitimately poor team.

NZ may be on the decline but they are not suddenly a weak team. India would struggle to even draw there much less whitewash. - Just like Eng would struggle to win in WI much less whitewash.

Again, disingenuous here. Stokes' team beating India in a canter last year is a pretty big indication how a series would have gone. - Kohli's team beating Eng in a canter at Lord's and Oval is a pretty big indication how a series would have gone. Rahul and Rohit, the two performers from 2021 didn't even play that match.

The idea that England would win in WI (where they haven't won since 2004) and Ind would lose in NZ (where they have won in 2009) is disingenuous and inconsistent. Either both would win or both won't. Eng have lost in WI in 2009, 2019 and 2022 and drew in 2014. This includes generations of players including Cook, KP, Anderson, Broad, Swann, Root etc etc.

The only right metric is to compare every team's last matchups both home and away. That usually covers a 3-4 year period and has overlap of personnel.

India is the ONLY team with a PERFECT home record and have wins in Aus, SL, WI, Bang and a draw in Eng with losses in NZ and SA.
Eng have home draws vs Ind and Aus and have wins in NZ, SA, Pak, SL and a draw in Bang with losses in Aus, Ind and WI.
Aus has a home loss vs Ind and have wins in Pak, NZ, WI and draws in Bang, Eng, SL with losses in Ind and SA.

Away matchups are
Ind - 4W 1D 2L
Eng - 4W 1D 3L
Aus - 3W 3D 2L

So India trumps both Aus and Eng in even away matchups, not to mention their perfect home record. Mind you, India doesn't get to play against a very weak Pakistan team which keeps getting massacred both inside/outside Asia. Hypothetically speaking, even if they lost that, their away record would then be tied with England's current away record.

 

[subshakerz]

Just trying to diminish some legitimately impressive achievements by England. The Pakistan whitewash could easily have been a 1-0 or 0-0 result if any other team played. - Considering the fact that Pak lost 0-1 to Aus, lost 1-2 to NZ, 0-2 to SL, drew 0-0 to NZ, drew 1-1 in WI, drew 1-1 in SL, lost 0-1 in Eng and have been whitewashed in NZ, SA and Aus I do not think so. The Pakistan test cricket team are a legitimately poor team.

Didn't address the argument about the nature of the victory.

NZ may be on the decline but they are not suddenly a weak team. India would struggle to even draw there much less whitewash. - Just like Eng would struggle to win in WI much less whitewash.

No, this Stokes team would crush WI home and away. History makes no difference to them. I don't think you actually believe that WI stand a chance, you are just saying this for the arguments sake.

Again, disingenuous here. Stokes' team beating India in a canter last year is a pretty big indication how a series would have gone. - Kohli's team beating Eng in a canter at Lord's and Oval is a pretty big indication how a series would have gone. Rahul and Rohit, the two performers from 2021 didn't even play that match.

We can speculate if those openers would have made a difference, but the point again which you ignore if that you said there is 'no indication' that's Stokes can beat India at home. A test victory is a pretty obvious indication so that is untrue.

The idea that England would win in WI (where they haven't won since 2004) and Ind would lose in NZ (where they have won in 2009) is disingenuous and inconsistent. Either both would win or both won't. Eng have lost in WI in 2009, 2019 and 2022 and drew in 2014. This includes generations of players including Cook, KP, Anderson, Broad, Swann, Root etc etc.

Cas the same Indian side was whitewashed in NZ and the middle order is in even worse shape now. England, on the other hand, weren't even fully fit with Anderson in WI last time, and are a very different side under Stokes which you like to ignore.

The only right metric is to compare every team's last matchups both home and away. That usually covers a 3-4 year period and has overlap of personnel.

Once again, irrelevant since we are talking CURRENT teams, hence evaluating Stokes run. Judging Stokes by Roots' losses is silly and shows you are either not aware enough to see a difference in quality of leadership or deliberately obscuring things to prop India up.

Your fundamental problem is you don't want to give Stokes' side credit because it makes India look bad to you.

 

[subshakerz]

we are dealing with three teams each with their own unique weaknesses. At least acknowledge that. - Yes, but India's weakness are less.

Please reread all your posts and tell me where you mention Indian weaknesses.

 

[CricAddict]

And they lost in SA to a young team in the same time, that's also not a hypothesis. Again, another poster trying to pretend India have a clear cut case by just ignoring it's losses. Neither Australia or England would have lost to SA. So we are dealing with three teams each with their own unique weaknesses. At least acknowledge that.

You are just shifting goal posts. Australia and England couldn't win Bangladesh while India didn't win South Africa. England couldn't win West Indies too. Acknowledge that.

 

[subshakerz]

You are just shifting goal posts. Australia and England couldn't win Bangladesh while India didn't win South Africa. England couldn't win West Indies too. Acknowledge that.

My point has always been that India's inability to win in Eng/NZ/SA keeps them from no.1 status.

England, we are judging Stokes team, not Roots.

I have been consistent, unlike you contortionists.

 

[Slifer]

Also worth mentioning that even under Stokes, England did lose by an innings at home to a weak South African team. That same RSA team got destroyed in Australia and would get swept in India.

 

[CricAddict]

Didn't address the argument about the nature of the victory.

No, this Stokes team would crush WI home and away. History makes no difference to them. I don't think you actually believe that WI stand a chance, you are just saying this for the arguments sake.


We can speculate if those openers would have made a difference, but the point again which you ignore if that you said there is 'no indication' that's Stokes can beat India at home. A test victory is a pretty obvious indication so that is untrue.


Cas the same Indian side was whitewashed in NZ and the middle order is in even worse shape now. England, on the other hand, weren't even fully fit with Anderson in WI last time, and are a very different side under Stokes which you like to ignore.



Once again, irrelevant since we are talking CURRENT teams, hence evaluating Stokes run. Judging Stokes by Roots' losses is silly and shows you are either not aware enough to see a difference in quality of leadership or deliberately obscuring things to prop India up.

Your fundamental problem is you don't want to give Stokes' side credit because it makes India look bad to you.

So you are yet another guy fainted by the nature of bazball. There goes addressing the nature of victory. It is just each country's playing style.

Let them beat west indies once first. Then talk. All these hypothetical thinking is only in your mind.

 

[CricAddict]

I am of the view that west indies are getting stronger now. So, I don't think they will be easy to put away for the English.

 

[Prince EWS]

So you are yet another guy fainted by the nature of bazball. There goes addressing the nature of victory. It is just each country's playing style.

Let them beat west indies once first. Then talk. All these hypothetical thinking is only in your mind.

This really reinforced my view that people are kind of answering two different questions here.

For some, like subshakerz, "which team is currently the best?" really is just hypothetical thinking in our own minds - because that's what the nature of the question is. Results from 2019 or whatever are basically irrelevant as to which team is the best now. It's a hypothetical thought experiment question by its very nature.

For others, like you, it's something that has to be earned and proven over long-term results.

I think you disagree more over what the question is really asking than what the answers should be.

 

[Slifer]

I am of the view that west indies are getting stronger now. So, I don't think they will be easy to put away for the English.

I'll be fair, if England played WI right now, I'd give them the edge. WI have perhaps unearthed something in young Chanderpaul and Motie but the batting especially, remains woeful. And the best WI bowler ie Seales is currently injured.

Unfortunately, I've felt this way for 4 consecutive ea series and each time, west indies surprised me: narrowly losinh 2-1 each time in England and beating them twice in the Caribbean.

 

[CricAddict]

This really reinforced my view that people are kind of answering two different questions here.

For some, like subshakerz, "which team is currently the best?" really is just hypothetical thinking in our own minds - because that's what the nature of the question is. Results from 2019 or whatever are basically irrelevant as to which team is the best now. It's a hypothetical thought experiment question by its very nature.

For others, like you, it's something that has to be earned and proven over long-term results.

I think you disagree more over what the question is really asking than what the answers should be.

You absolutely nailed it here in this post PEWS.