Is AB de Villiers an ATG test batsman?

[Archer6K]

Won't make the SA best 11 unless you play him as a wicketkeeper.

1 Bruce Mitchell
2 Graeme Smith
3 Jacques Kallis
4 Graeme Pollock
5 Abraham de Villiers
6 Dudley Nourse
7 John Waite+
8 Shaun Pollock
9 Hugh Tayfield
10 Dale Steyn
11 Allan Donald

 

[subshakerz]

Kinda feel like both of you are a bit off in opposite directions. Your quality compared to contemporaries shouldn't matter too much without assessing the quality of the contemporaries.

But also, he was overshadowed by the RSA bats for a long time because they peaked at an earlier date. Makes no difference to me when a player peaked. Kallis at least was also better tbf, so depends on how much of a gap between Kallis and the bottom tier ATGs you think there is.

It did make a difference in his case since he was batting below them, so his job was a lot easier.

I felt until 2013/4 or so, he was the fourth best bat in the team after Kallis, Amla and Smith. After that his returns were ok but he missed enough tests to stop him from setting himself apart from the pack as an ATG.

 

[OverratedSanity]

ABdV on a skill level is right up there. Had the full spectrum of gears which is a rare quality. Only 22 tons though, and his overseas record has the weird distinction of being both very nicely uniform but also with very few tours where he truly stamped his authority in with massive runs. He was just decent to good everywhere. I do also hold against him the weird sabbatical he took when he got 3 ducks in a row vs England. Taking a break like that when personal and team form aren't the best is a little weak imo.

He's not an atg by my personal criteria but would not balk at anyone rating him as one.

 

[271 & 16/166]

He is a ATG simply from his extraordinary 149 from 44

 

[Dendarii]

1 Bruce Mitchell
2 Graeme Smith
3 Jacques Kallis
4 Graeme Pollock
5 Abraham de Villiers
6 Dudley Nourse
7 John Waite+
8 Shaun Pollock
9 Hugh Tayfield
10 Dale Steyn
11 Allan Donald

Faulkner?

 

[StephenZA]

1 Barry Richards
2 Graeme Smith/Bruce Mitchell
3 Jacques Kallis
4 Graeme Pollock
5 Dudley Nourse
6 Aubrey Faulkner
7 Mike Procter
8 John Waite+
9 Hugh Tayfield
10 Dale Steyn
11 Allan Donald

ftfy

 

[Dendarii]

ftfy

To be fair, Richards and Procter pose a bit of a conundrum because of their truncated test careers. It's not wrong to include them based on their first-class records and the likelihood they would have been two of South Africa's best ever test cricketers, but it's also not wrong to exclude them on the basis that it's impossible to say that for certain and they simply played too few tests to justify a place.

I think they should be there, but I can't criticise someone for not picking them.

 

[StephenZA]

To be fair, Richards and Procter pose a bit of a conundrum because of their truncated test careers. It's not wrong to include them based on their first-class records and the likelihood they would have been two of South Africa's best ever test cricketers, but it's also not wrong to exclude them on the basis that it's impossible to say that for certain and they simply played too few tests to justify a place.

I think they should be there, but I can't criticise someone for not picking them.

I understand why people don't pick them. Not really criticizing for that. But If I`m picking my imaginary best team every I want to consider all the best possible players. I mean I jump back and forth between Faulkner, Procter and Rice. Probably be condition dependent!

But the point stands that I don't think ABdV makes the team unless you drop Waite...

 

[Bolo.]

Pretty big. He won an awful lot of matches.

For me too, but some people include significantly fewer players in the ATG list, and where you draw the line is very arbitrary- someone like AB can be ranked an ATG/not one by two people with identical perceptions of his quality.

It did make a difference in his case since he was batting below them, so his job was a lot easier.

I felt until 2013/4 or so, he was the fourth best bat in the team after Kallis, Amla and Smith. After that his returns were ok but he missed enough tests to stop him from setting himself apart from the pack as an ATG.

Batting lower is easier, but it a very different issue to your original point. He was extremely good in lower positions, regardless of how the top did, with his record being dragged down by opening.

All of Kallis, AB and Amla were operating on a very similar level from the late 2000s till about 2013, with Smith a level below. AB didn't catch as much praise as his career had not been as good in its entirety at that stage.

 

[Dendarii]

But the point stands that I don't think ABdV makes the team unless you drop Waite...

Yeah, I'm with you on that. It comes down to whether you want the keeper who was the best with the gloves or the one who was the best with the bat.

 

[subshakerz]

For me too, but some people include significantly fewer players in the ATG list, and where you draw the line is very arbitrary- someone like AB can be ranked an ATG/not one by two people with identical perceptions of his quality.


Batting lower is easier, but it a very different issue to your original point. He was extremely good in lower positions, regardless of how the top did, with his record being dragged down by opening.

All of Kallis, AB and Amla were operating on a very similar level from the late 2000s till about 2013, with Smith a level below. AB didn't catch as much praise as his career had not been as good in its entirety at that stage.

It doesn't matter. ATG means only top tier to me. Even Dravid isn't an ATG, ABD surely is not.

 

[Bolo.]

It doesn't matter. ATG means only top tier to me. Even Dravid isn't an ATG, ABD surely is not.

Ya, fair enough. Your bar is high enough that your reasoning becomes somewhat unnecessary.

 

[shortpitched713]

To those who don’t consider ABD ATG , What is your logic behind the decision?

There are easily about a dozen or so better batsmen in the Modern ( 70- ) Era alone.

 

[peterhrt]

Yeah, I'm with you on that. It comes down to whether you want the keeper who was the best with the gloves or the one who was the best with the bat.

Who would you say was South Africa's best-ever keeper? Ignoring batting.

Roy McLean reckoned Waite was good, but a class below Godfrey Evans. Cameron was highly rated, though his keeping apparently sometimes suffered when he was captain.

Halliwell? Sherwell? How good was Ray Jennings?

 

[Archer6K]

Who would you say was South Africa's best-ever keeper? Ignoring batting.

Roy McLean reckoned Waite was good, but a class below Godfrey Evans. Cameron was highly rated, though his keeping apparently sometimes suffered when he was captain.

Halliwell? Sherwell? How good was Ray Jennings?

Ray Jennings was world class

 

[shortpitched713]

It doesn't matter. ATG means only top tier to me. Even Dravid isn't an ATG, ABD surely is not.

This. On an even more comparable note, some people even (wrongly) exclude Sanga from ATG somehow. With that standard, what hope does AdV have?

 

[StephenZA]

Ray Jennings?

Exceptional by all accounts....

 

[subshakerz]

This. On an even more comparable note, some people even (wrongly) exclude Sanga from ATG somehow. With that standard, what hope does AdV have?

Sanga is borderline to me.

ABD is just a regular great, in a sense the same level with G. Smith and Amla.

 

[shortpitched713]

ABD is just a regular great, in a sense the same level with G. Smith and Amla.

Graeme Smith is a bit underrated, but yeah I would agree with that generally.

 

[Bolo.]

There are easily about a dozen or so better batsmen in the Modern ( 70- ) Era alone.

The modern era includes the vast majority of tests ever played, and the highest standards. You would expect a high proportion of ATGs to come from this period, whether or not being the 13th best from the era is good enough to get you into ATG levels.