Is Jadeja an ATG test cricketer?

[Senile Sentry]

I wanted to make that analogy but didn’t extend it to McGrath cos McGrath was a tier above Wasim and Jadeja isn’t a tier above Ashwin. At the very best they’re similar tier, and maybe Jadeja is a tier lower if you want to go down that route.
Wasim/Pollock is maybe better, but I also think Pollock is a clear tier below Wasim, whereas I think there’s an argument for Jadeja to be same tier as Ashwin.

Perfectly understandable. My point was just on the visibility aspect. Even if one asks the 90s kids who their idols were or whom they wanted to emulate, most answers would be Wasim than McGrath.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Can you pls link to this article ?

Oops I thought it was this one but doesn’t appear to be it. It was something about Wicket Quotient Index - Jadeja was 14th on the list, extremely high for a spinner and only behind Murali.

The underappreciated genius of Ravindra Jadeja

He is tireless and accurate, but there are other layers to his bowling as well, which perhaps aren't as clearly discernible

www.espncricinfo.com

Maybe it was mentioned in a podcast or something. Be good if someone can dig it up

 

[CricAddict]

Jadeja suffers from the same issue that Kallis or Pollock or even Hadlee did. If their second suit wasn't as strong as it is, they would be rated higher on the primary suit. All-rounder's curse.

 

[OverratedSanity]

My point is Ashwin gets plaudits for galaxy braining, explaining in detail what he does, and random variations.
The other guy doesn’t get the same level of credit - he’s seen as a simpler bowler cos he runs in and bowls hard and fast and he isn’t “that simple”. He’s just as effective.
Which isn’t to say that Ashwin isn’t a better bowler, just that the other guy is nearly as effective in actually doing the job required - taking wickets, keeping runs down.
Ashwin’s seen as Wasim, who again was great, but not as good as he SHOULD have been given he could bowl whatever he wanted to.

That is fine as an overall analysis of them as bowlers, not when we were talking about specifically the Australia series

 

[Socerer 01]

Jadeja’s also good on flat tracks too, remember him getting 7 wickets in a Chennai test in 2016 when England toured and both teams scored over a thousand runs if I’m right

 

[centurymaker]

If I had to pick one out of the two to play an overseas test, I'd pick Jadeja. Even at home, I would take Jadeja! He is simply great against both RHB and LHB, whereas Ashwin is monster against LHB and probably goodish against RHB. Jadeja can bowl dry and hold up an end and is a better batsman and fielder. Definitely would pick him over Ash.

In fact, the prime reason India lost in South Africa was the absence of Jadeja, who would have done better in both departments in the low scoring shootouts. Ashwin just wasn't effective. His batting also seemed to fade overseas.


If I had to pick India's top 5 test players, they would be-

1. Jadeja
2. Pant
3. Ashwin
4. Bumrah
5. Rohit

Jadeja would be the first name on the list, so all this talk about him being a support bowler to Ashwin is absolute nonsense.

 

[centurymaker]

I used to hold Ashwin slightly above Jadeja sometime ago, when Shastri and Kohli used to pick & play Jadeja instead of Ashwin in some overseas tours. Those days I would feel that Ashwin was being hard done by. In fact, even the general public would feel that way because of the aura Ashwin had created through his social media and youtube channel.

But when Ashwin's solo chance finally came against a weak South African batting lineup in 2021/22, I can just never forget how badly he disappointed! It made me realise how Shastri and Kohli were maybe right all along to prefer Jadeja to Ashwin in some overseas tours!

Ashwin has 10 wickets in 6 Tests in South Africa. I am certain Jadeja would have done much better in South Africa and he will prove it end of this year. (Ashwin though may be more suited to English conditions where Jadeja has been more of a container.)

Overall, I feel that Ashwin sometimes truly struggles to remove any RHBs, like it happened in South Africa who had 5 Right-handers in the top 6.

I don't think we can say the same for Jadeja who is really good against left handers as well. This is why I think Jadeja and Ashwin are neck and neck as bowlers (it's fine if someone thinks Ashwin is marginally ahead). On the other hand, Jadeja is a clearly superior batsman (even more so overseas) so is a better player overall.

 

[subshakerz]

I used to hold Ashwin slightly above Jadeja sometime ago, when Shastri and Kohli used to pick & play Jadeja instead of Ashwin in some overseas tours. Those days I would feel that Ashwin was being hard done by. In fact, even the general public would feel that way because of the aura Ashwin had created through his social media and youtube channel.

But when Ashwin's solo chance finally came against a weak South African batting lineup in 2021/22, I can just never forget how badly he disappointed! It made me realise how Shastri and Kohli were maybe right all along to prefer Jadeja to Ashwin in some overseas tours!

Ashwin has 10 wickets in 6 Tests in South Africa. I am certain Jadeja would have done much better in South Africa and he will prove it end of this year. (Ashwin though may be more suited to English conditions where Jadeja has been more of a container.)

Overall, I feel that Ashwin sometimes truly struggles to remove any RHBs, like it happened in South Africa who had 5 Right-handers in the top 6.

I don't think we can say the same for Jadeja who is really good against left handers as well. This is why I think Jadeja and Ashwin are neck and neck as bowlers (it's fine if someone thinks Ashwin is marginally ahead). On the other hand, Jadeja is a clearly superior batsman (even more so overseas) so is a better player overall.

Ashwin and Jadeja are not matchwinners in SENA unlike virtually every quality spinner before them. To compensate, they are uber at home. This has been clear for some time.

 

[CricAddict]

Ashwin and Jadeja are not matchwinners in SENA unlike virtually every quality spinner before them. To compensate, they are uber at home. This has been clear for some time.

This is not true and it is just what you are trying to create. I have explained it so many times already.

 

[subshakerz]

This is not true and it is just what you are trying to create. I have explained it so many times already.

Let's agree to be disagreeable then.

 

[OverratedSanity]

This is not true and it is just what you are trying to create. I have explained it so many times already.

They have both done better overseas but are never going to be true spearheads with the ball who can consistently run through a team like Warne/Murali or atg fast bowlers. That's the life of a great finger spinner.

 

[Senile Sentry]

They have both done better overseas but are never going to be true spearheads with the ball who can consistently run through a team like Warne/Murali or atg fast bowlers. That's the life of a great finger spinner.

How many times have they done though? Also isn't it a product of other bowlers being not good as well right? Murali averaged 72 in Aus for one reason - the support bowlers were not upto mark. Kimble used to have these so called run through because of similar reasons. The batters have to get out to someone!

 

[OverratedSanity]

Kimble used to have these so called run through because of similar reasons.

Not quite, he picked up big hauls slowly by bowling marathon spells. The top tier of fast bowlers and Murali/Warne had a pretty big list of performances where they'd get a bunch of wickets either : (i) quickly or (ii) cheaply and in many cases, both. In addition to being able to do the Kumble marathon role when conditions are harder. That's generally what separates that tier from the rest of the great/very good bowlers.

 

[subshakerz]

How many times have they done though? Also isn't it a product of other bowlers being not good as well right? Murali averaged 72 in Aus for one reason - the support bowlers were not upto mark. Kimble used to have these so called run through because of similar reasons. The batters have to get out to someone!

Murali also took eightfers in England.

 

[CricAddict]

They have both done better overseas but are never going to be true spearheads with the ball who can consistently run through a team like Warne/Murali or atg fast bowlers. That's the life of a great finger spinner.

Why do they have to be the spearhead on pitches that don't give them any assistance? The aussies don't bank on Cummins in India and bank more in Lyon and Murphy. That doesn't take away the greatness from Cummins.

If they can perform a decent role of supporting the pacers overseas like what Cummins or Boland are doing, they have done their job.

You don't expect Cummins to spearhead and run through lineups on a rank Turner but expect the same from Ashwin and Jadeja in Greenlands. How is that fair?

 

[Bolo.]

Jadeja suffers from the same issue that Kallis or Pollock or even Hadlee did. If their second suit wasn't as strong as it is, they would be rated higher on the primary suit. All-rounder's curse.

Not sure Hadlee suffers from this much, at least on CW. He is most typically rated as 3rd best ever, and while you could very reasonably rate him above Marshall/ Mcgrath, losing to these guys is not an issue if you aren't the bowling bradman.

 

[CricAddict]

Not quite, he picked up big hauls slowly by bowling marathon spells. The top tier of fast bowlers and Murali/Warne had a pretty big list of performances where they'd get a bunch of wickets either : (i) quickly or (ii) cheaply and in many cases, both. In addition to being able to do the Kumble marathon role when conditions are harder. That's generally what separates that tier from the rest of the great/very good bowlers.

Kumble is a great bowler yes but he got wickets in those marathons because the pacers were **** like Agarkar and Prasad. India don't do marathons to spinners overseas anymore since India has 3-4 pacers in the lineup to do that now and take wickets.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Why do they have to be the spearhead on pitches that don't give them any assistance? The aussies don't bank on Cummins in India and bank more in Lyon and Murphy. That doesn't take away the greatness from Cummins.

If they can perform a decent role of supporting the pacers overseas like what Cummins or Boland are doing, they have done their job.

You don't expect Cummins to spearhead and run through lineups on a rank Turner but expect the same from Ashwin and Jadeja in Greenlands. How is that fair?

Where do you get the idea that I dont expect Cummins to be a spearhead on Asian decks. Not every game, but once over a long series? Sure. The guy took 8 wickets in the deciding test in Pakistan to win them the series. He'll have to do that a few more times in Asia for me to put him up there with the greatest pace bowlers.

ATG bowlers can be spearheads on any kind of pitch. Not as frequently as on helpful tracks of course, but they won't be neutralized to a holding role all the time like finger spinners,

 

[Socerer 01]

besides Ashwin tends to break down if you ask him to do a marathon

Jadeja would probably do a double marathon in that same time period too

 

[OverratedSanity]

Kumble is a great bowler yes but he got wickets in those marathons because the pacers were **** like Agarkar and Prasad. India don't do marathons to spinners overseas anymore since India has 3-4 pacers in the lineup to do that now and take wickets.

I was comparing Ashwin and Jadeja to Warne and Murali in that post. I cited Kumble because doing the marathon spell thing is the pretty much limit of what finger spinners can consistently achieve on most overseas tracks that dont turn much. Warne/Murali can be a threat on a much wider variety of pitches.