Jacques Kallis vs Rahul Dravid vs Kumar Sangakkara

[anil1405]

This is something people say often but it never really stands up to scrutiny. Guys like Donald, Steyn, AB got plaudits from all around the world throughout their careers . Kallis got less credit because he was a boring batsman, not because he was from SA. Similar to how Pollock probably got overlooked.

AB's LOI reputation precedes his test career too apparently. He was not as aggressive in tests as he was in LOIs.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

I know I've posted this before, but I really do think this is one of the situations where the ICC ranking graph really helps.

View attachment 33897

 

[centurymaker]

Sanga's overall record vs Australia and vs England is hardly impressive.

11 Tests averaging 43 vs Australia (1 100)
22 Tests averaging 40 vs England (3 100s)


Don't want to highlight this but his average is insane vs minnows and Pakistan.

23 Tests averaging 74 vs Pakistan (10 100s)
15 Tests averaging 95 vs Bangladesh (7 100s)


Sri Lanka played significantly higher number of tests against weaker/easier nations (and considerably fewer tests vs Aus etc). This really helped elevate the records of Sri Lankan players. People never seem to take this into account. Personally, I don't rate records against Pakistan highly, given the nature of pitches they produce at home. Then there's similar pitches in lanka, so I'm not surprised that 30% of his 100s are against Pak alone. And almost 50% of his hundreds are against Pak and Bangladesh.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sanga's overall record vs Australia and vs England is hardly impressive.

11 Tests averaging 43 vs Australia (1 100)
22 Tests averaging 40 vs England (3 100s)


Don't want to highlight this but his average is insane vs minnows and Pakistan.

23 Tests averaging 74 vs Pakistan (10 100s)
15 Tests averaging 95 vs Bangladesh (7 100s)


Sri Lanka played significantly higher number of tests against weaker nations. This really helped elevate the records of Sri Lankan players. People never seem to take this into account. Personally, I don't rate records against Pakistan highly, given the nature of pitches they produce at home. Then there's similar pitches in lanka, so I'm not surprised that 30% of his 100s are against Pak alone. And almost 50% of his hundreds are against Pak and Bangladesh.

Pakistan is a completely arbitrary country to club in with minnows just because Sanga had a good record vs them. Bigger skew for Sanga that helped his record is his massive proportion of matches in Asia. Around 75%.

Also, Dravid had a poor record vs SA and a mediocre one vs Aus.

 

[Flem274*]

those averages just tell me sanga was pretty good against those sides.

 

[shortpitched713]

Between the two reasons OverratedSanity and Flem mentioned, that has to be one of the worst pieces of Sanga bashing "analysis" I've ever seen on this site. Face it, the dude's batting record is just exemplary.

But take heart, you can still hate on the man. Just say he stiffed your kid when asking for an autograph. It works for the rest of CW, it seems.

 

[subshakerz]

Sanga's overall record vs Australia and vs England is hardly impressive.

11 Tests averaging 43 vs Australia (1 100)
22 Tests averaging 40 vs England (3 100s)


Don't want to highlight this but his average is insane vs minnows and Pakistan.

23 Tests averaging 74 vs Pakistan (10 100s)
15 Tests averaging 95 vs Bangladesh (7 100s)


Sri Lanka played significantly higher number of tests against weaker/easier nations (and considerably fewer tests vs Aus etc). This really helped elevate the records of Sri Lankan players. People never seem to take this into account. Personally, I don't rate records against Pakistan highly, given the nature of pitches they produce at home. Then there's similar pitches in lanka, so I'm not surprised that 30% of his 100s are against Pak alone. And almost 50% of his hundreds are against Pak and Bangladesh.

Sanga decoded Ajmal and faced Shoaib and Asif. Counts a lot.

And yeah Sanga is stats padded but also averages more so it's evens out.

On overall record, not much to choose between Sanga, Dravid and Kallis IMO.

 

[ankitj]

Sangakkara's record in SENA is where he drops off ATG level (but still mighty good). Dravid did well in NZ and Eng, but not so much in Aus and SA. Overall still shades Sanga.

 

[subshakerz]

Sangakkara's record in SENA is where he drops off ATG level (but still mighty good). Dravid did well in NZ and Eng, but not so much in Aus and SA. Overall still shades Sanga.

Not really much to choose.

Both below par in SA, though Dravid moreso.

Both superb in NZ, though Sanga's runs against Bond are more impressive.

Dravid definitely better than Sanga in England, Sanga better than Dravid in Australia, remember that Dravid only has one good tour against a depleted attack out of four tours and flopped against McWarne. Dravid's one ton in 16 tests in Australia is a big underachievement.

 

[anil1405]

Dravid definitely better than Sanga in England, Sanga better than Dravid in Australia, remember that Dravid only has one good tour against a depleted attack out of four tours and flopped against McWarne. Dravid's one ton in 16 tests in Australia is a big underachievement.

And Sangakkara's 192 came against?

 

[subshakerz]

And Sangakkara's 192 came against?

A better attack.

Brett Lee is his worldclass phase, plus Clark and Johnson, in the fourth innings.

Dravid faced Gillespie, Williams and Bichel.

 

[anil1405]

A better attack.

Brett Lee is his worldclass phase, plus Clark and Johnson, in the fourth innings.

Dravid faced Gillespie, Williams and Bichel.

Interesting to know that Lee was world class and Johnson was considered relevant enough at that time.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Interesting to know that Lee was world class and Johnson was considered relevant enough at that time.

Lee was very good in 07-08.

Always funny to see Gillespie and Macgill being relegated to nobodies when that 03-04 series is mentioned though.

 

[anil1405]

Lee was very good in 07-08.

Always funny to see Gillespie and Macgill being relegated to nobodies when that 03-04 series is mentioned though.

Yeah Lee was pretty good that summer but I wouldn't coin it as world class unless it is by his own average test standards.

And you are right, there isn't much difference in the quality of attacks when Sanga scored 192 in and Dravid 233.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah Lee was pretty good that summer but I wouldn't coin it as world class unless it is by his own average test standards.

And you are right, there isn't much difference in the quality of attacks when Sanga scored 192 in and Dravid 233.

Brett Lee was excellent that summer. He looked far better than Gillespie 2003-04 who wasnt the same threat when McGrath wasnt around.

Clark was also a terrific bowler at that time.

Lee, Clark, Johnson, MacGill > Gillespie, Bichel, Williams, MacGill.

And of course, match situation was different. Dravid was batting Day 3 on a Adelaide pancake plus had Laxman as batting partner. Sanga was on Day 5 with little support and was counterattacking.

 

[OverratedSanity]

And of course, match situation was different. Dravid was batting Day 3 on a Adelaide pancake plus had Laxman as batting partner. Sanga was on Day 5 with little support and was counterattacking.

Holy **** this is the stupidest thing I've heard from you yet. India were 80-4 responding to a 550+ Australia score and Dravid and VVS brought India back from the brink. Sanga's 192 was a futile hit and giggle session in a lost cause, and yet that's the more crucial situation?

Get the **** out lmao. Just stop talking cricket ffs.

 

[subshakerz]

Holy **** this is the stupidest thing I've heard from you yet. India were 80-4 responding to a 550+ Australia score and Dravid and VVS brought India back from the brink. Sanga's 192 was a futile hit and giggle session in a lost cause, and yet that's the more crucial situation?

Get the **** out lmao. Just stop talking cricket ffs.

What? Sanga actually had the Aussies worrying there and was playing some of the best strokeplay I have seen by a foreign bat in Australia. If it wasn't for that inane decision, who knows how close he could have taken it, he didn't look like getting out.

Fair enough, Dravid had match pressure, I will grant you that, but it was objectively easier to bat on Adelaide Day 3 against an weaker attack.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sanga's 192 is similar to VVS 167 at Sydney. Glorious batting exhibition in a match that was never close. If you want to rate those innings highly on the basis of batting skill, sure. Dravid/Kallis are not capable of that kind of sustained attacking strokeplay. But you brought up match sitiuation and dismissed the Dravid double ton* that brought India back from a dire situation as "flat pancake, meh". Unbelievably asinine. It is a far more meaningful performance than anything Sangakkara did. You can debate the quality, but not the importance.

*Note: He also followed it up with an unbeaten 70 in the 4th innings to win the match by 4 wickets btw.

 

[subshakerz]

Sanga's 192 is similar to VVS 167 at Sydney. Glorious batting exhibition in a match that was never close. If you want to rate those innings highly on the basis of batting skill, sure. Dravid/Kallis are not capable of that kind of sustained attacking strokeplay. But you brought up match sitiuation and dismissed the Dravid double ton* that brought India back from a dire situation as "flat pancake, meh". Unbelievably asinine. It is a far more meaningful performance than anything Sangakkara did. You can debate the quality, but not the importance.

*Note: He also followed it up with an unbeaten 70 in the 4th innings to win the match by 4 wickets btw.

I suppose I should have said playing conditions than match situation because that was what I meant. I don't want to get into a debate about the merits of the innings but I do rate Sanga's as better though I would agree with you that Dravid's meant more given that India won the match.

 

[ankitj]

Not really much to choose.

Both below par in SA, though Dravid moreso.

Both superb in NZ, though Sanga's runs against Bond are more impressive.

Dravid definitely better than Sanga in England, Sanga better than Dravid in Australia, remember that Dravid only has one good tour against a depleted attack out of four tours and flopped against McWarne. Dravid's one ton in 16 tests in Australia is a big underachievement.

Yeah.

Kallis > Sangakkara > Dravid