The legacy of Steve Smith

[Slifer]

Averaging in the 50s seems to be about the limit of what humans can do unless they're Bradman (or Smith so far...). If Lara debuted a tad later he'd probably average a bit more than he did due to getting in on the 00s boom a bit more, but the main effect of the homogenous CEO decks wasn't to raise peak averages but raise averages across the board. Guys who might average 45 averaging 50 etc.

That's the most impressive thing about Smith and to a lesser extent the Fab 4 - as the number of statistical 50+ers and even 45+ batsmen is being ruthlessly corrected, they're going against the grain and in Smith's case exceeding it. It strongly suggests Smith is far less environmentally controlled than almost all other batsmen, and the environment (pitch and conditions) have the most say on the outcome of a cricket game.

Yeah Smith is an outlier among all his contemporaries in that he's just peerless away especially in England and India. Again, on a self serving note I really want to see him face us at home using the Duke ball.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah Smith is an outlier among all his contemporaries in that he's just peerless away especially in England and India. Again, on a self serving note I really want to see him face us at home using the Duke ball.

Didn't he do that in 2015, in Voges' debut series? He made 199 in one of the games.

Or was that pre-Dukes ball in WI?

 

[Arachnodouche]

You can fault him for soft runs all you want but he's one of those guys in whom you simply can't think of a weakness, and that precludes super-tech guys like Tendulkar because of just that properness. Have ppl detected a glaring flaw in his game that past bowling greats could conceivably exploit? He's just extremely hard to bowl to. The Ashwinface says it all:

 

[Slifer]

Didn't he do that in 2015, in Voges' debut series? He made 199 in one of the games.

Or was that pre-Dukes ball in WI?

Completely different bowling then with the exception of Jason Holder and a not as experienced Roach.

 

[Coronis]

No he just wasn't a selfish sob like Shiv. There are several of his innings where because of the pathetic batting he was surrounded with, he had to hit out and make as many runs as possible. Case in point his 226 vs Australia etc.

The wink and general nature of that post was meant to indicate it was pretty much tongue in cheek haha

 

[morgieb]

Curious to know if any other team has had the absolute undisputed best batsman and best bowler in the same team. For me Smith and Cummins are the absolute best in the business.

Trying to think about who would've been the #1 batsman and bowler in the game. Note that a lot of the time it would've been disputed:

2014 - present: Smith (maybe Root for the COVID years where Smith was batting with a stump?)
2011 - 2014: probably Sangakkara, but Clarke and Amla also have claims?
2007 - 2011: Tendulkar/Kallis basically tied for 1st, maybe Sachin if you had to pick one
2002 - 2007: Ponting (Dravid and Kallis not too far behind)
1996 - 2002: Tendulkar
1993 - 1996: Lara (Waugh and Tendulkar not that far behind)
1990 - 1993: Gooch
1981 - 1989: Border (Javed and Richards close)
1976 - 1981: Richards
1972 - 1976: Greg Chappell
1958 - 1972: Sobers (could Pollock have pushed for this if not for Apartheid?)
1954 - 1958: Walcott? May? Harvey? Compton? Lots of guys you could make a case for. Forced to call, Peter May maybe?
1948 - 1954: Hutton (with Harvey and Weekes close by)
1930 - 1948: Bradman
1927 - 1930: Hammond
1909 - 1927: Hobbs
1899 - 1909: Trumper (could make a case for Clem Hill?)
1895 - 1899: Ranjitsinhji
before 1895: Grace

2017 - present: Cummins
2015 - 2017: Anderson? (cases could also be made for Broad, Ashwin, Starc, Hazlewood....)
2007 - 2015: Steyn (Johnson maybe challenged him during the 2013/14 summer?)
2001 - 2007: McGrath (Murali very close and would've been top during the period where McGrath was long-term injured)
1995 - 2001: McGrath probably top here too, but Donald, Ambrose and Pollock would've had claims too
1990 - 1995: probably Waqar, though Ambrose, Wasim and Warne were very close too
1982 - 1989: Marshall, Hadlee and Imran close to tied, Marshall maybe slightly ahead?
1971 - 1982: Mostly Lillee, but at various points Holding, Garner and Imran might've had claims and there was a period where he was missing through injury and then it's a complete lottery - Max Walker maybe?
1967 - 1971: Proctor, if you rule him out for not playing enough Tests then Snow probably
1964 - 1967: Crazy as it sounds, the answer might be Ken Higgs
1957 - 1964: Trueman
1953 - 1957: Probably Laker or Tyson
1946 - 1953: Lindwall
1933 - 1939: O'Reilly
1928 - 1933: Larwood
1924 - 1928: Tate
1920 - 1924: Gregory
1907 - 1914: Barnes
1902 - 1907: Rhodes
1897 - 1902: Trumble
1896 - 1897: Richardson
1886 - 1896: Lohmann
before 1886: Spofforth

 

[Slifer]

Trying to think about who would've been the #1 batsman and bowler in the game. Note that a lot of the time it would've been disputed:

2014 - present: Smith (maybe Root for the COVID years where Smith was batting with a stump?)
2011 - 2014: probably Sangakkara, but Clarke and Amla also have claims?
2007 - 2011: Tendulkar/Kallis basically tied for 1st, maybe Sachin if you had to pick one
2002 - 2007: Ponting (Dravid and Kallis not too far behind)
1996 - 2002: Tendulkar
1993 - 1996: Lara (Waugh and Tendulkar not that far behind)
1990 - 1993: Gooch
1981 - 1989: Border (Javed and Richards close)
1976 - 1981: Richards
1972 - 1976: Greg Chappell
1958 - 1972: Sobers (could Pollock have pushed for this if not for Apartheid?)
1954 - 1958: Walcott? May? Harvey? Compton? Lots of guys you could make a case for. Forced to call, Peter May maybe?
1948 - 1954: Hutton (with Harvey and Weekes close by)
1930 - 1948: Bradman
1927 - 1930: Hammond
1909 - 1927: Hobbs
1899 - 1909: Trumper (could make a case for Clem Hill?)
1895 - 1899: Ranjitsinhji
before 1895: Grace

2017 - present: Cummins
2015 - 2017: Anderson? (cases could also be made for Broad, Ashwin, Starc, Hazlewood....)
2007 - 2015: Steyn (Johnson maybe challenged him during the 2013/14 summer?)
2001 - 2007: McGrath (Murali very close and would've been top during the period where McGrath was long-term injured)
1995 - 2001: McGrath probably top here too, but Donald, Ambrose and Pollock would've had claims too
1990 - 1995: probably Waqar, though Ambrose, Wasim and Warne were very close too
1982 - 1989: Marshall, Hadlee and Imran close to tied, Marshall maybe slightly ahead?
1971 - 1982: Mostly Lillee, but at various points Holding, Garner and Imran might've had claims and there was a period where he was missing through injury and then it's a complete lottery - Max Walker maybe?
1967 - 1971: Proctor, if you rule him out for not playing enough Tests then Snow probably
1964 - 1967: Crazy as it sounds, the answer might be Ken Higgs
1957 - 1964: Trueman
1953 - 1957: Probably Laker or Tyson
1946 - 1953: Lindwall
1933 - 1939: O'Reilly
1928 - 1933: Larwood
1924 - 1928: Tate
1920 - 1924: Gregory
1907 - 1914: Barnes
1902 - 1907: Rhodes
1897 - 1902: Trumble
1896 - 1897: Richardson
1886 - 1896: Lohmann
before 1886: Spofforth

I thought about it and only really Bradman and O'Reilly came to mind.

 

[Daemon]

@Spark @Starfighter

Huss was really annoying with the whole handling of the older bats but this was a pretty cool segment overall. Pity Waugh couldn't give a proper throwdown and Huss seems to have lost his touch.

 

[peterhrt]

Trying to think about who would've been the #1 batsman and bowler in the game. Note that a lot of the time it would've been disputed:

The ICC rankings go back retrospectively to 1882. A previous version by Coopers & Lybrand started in 1877 when Tests began, so can fill in the early years. Top ranked batsman at the end of each calendar year since 1877 below. Years when no completed Test match occurred are excluded (1878, 1881, 1891, 1900, 1915-19, 1940-45).

12 – Sobers (1959-64, 1966-68, 1971-73)

11 – Hobbs (1910, 1912-14, 1920-22, 1924-27)

10 – Bradman (1931, 1933-39, 1946-47)

7 – Clem Hill (1902-04, 1906-09)

6 – Viv Richards (1976-77, 1980-82, 1986)

5 – Hutton (1949-53)

4 – Shrewsbury (1886-89), Lyons (1892-94, 1896), Herbert Sutcliffe (1928-30, 1932)

3 – Charles Bannerman (1877, 1879-80), Grace (1890, 1895, 1897), Gooch (1991-93), Tendulkar (1994, 1998, 2000), Lara (1995, 1999, 2001), Ponting (2003, 2005-06), Sangakkara (2007, 2010-11), Steve Smith (2015-17)

2 – Ulyett (1882-83), AG Steel (1884-85), Hayward (1899, 1901), Walcott (1955-56), May (1957-58), Walters (1969-70), Gavaskar (1978-79), Clive Lloyd (1983-84), Richie Richardson (1989-90), Steve Waugh (1996-97), AB de Villiers (2013-14), Kohli (2018-19), Labuschagne (2021-22)

1 – Darling (1898), FS Jackson (1905), Faulkner (1911), HW Taylor (1923), Compton (1948), Harvey (1954), Barrington (1965), Glenn Turner (1974), Kallicharran (1975), Border (1985), Vengsarkar (1987), Javed Miandad (1988), Hayden (2002), Dravid (2004), Chanderpaul (2008), Gambhir (2009), Michael Clarke (2012), Williamson (2020)

Among those never ranked first at year-end are Ranjitsinhji, Trumper, Macartney, Hammond, Headley, Worrell, Weekes, Graeme Pollock, Barry Richards (not enough Tests), Greg Chappell, Martin Crowe, Kallis, Amla and Root.

Before Test cricket began in 1877, Grace was undisputed leading batsman for the nine years between 1868 and 1876. Adding these to his three years during the Test era would give him 12 in total.

 

[Coronis]

A perfect example of why ICC ratings should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[peterhrt]

Same for bowlers:

6 – Briggs (1889, 1892-95, 1897), Grimmett (1930-35)

5 – Spofforth (1879-80, 1882-83, 1886), Trumble (1899, 1901-04), Tate (1925-29), Lance Gibbs (1964-68), Underwood (1969-72, 1974), McGrath (1996-97, 2001-02, 2004), Steyn (2009-12, 2014)

4 – Barnes (1911-14), Jack Gregory (1921-24), Hadlee (1985-88), Muralitharan (2003, 2006-08), Cummins (2019-22)

3 – Peel (1888, 1890, 1896), O'Reilly (1937-39), Lindwall (1948-49, 1954), Bill Johnston (1950-52), Tayfield (1955-57), Lillee (1975, 1977, 1981), Marshall (1984, 1989-90), Warne (1994-95, 2005)

2 – Palmer (1884-85), Rhodes (1905-06), Blythe (1907, 1909), Davidson (1960-61), Botham 1979-80), Imran Khan (1982-83), Ambrose (1991-92), Shaun Pollock (1999-2000), Ashwin (2015-16)

1 – Kendall (1877), Bates (1887), Tom Richardson (1898), Jack Saunders (1908), Cotter (1910), Faulkner (1920), Verity (1936), Voce (1946), Toshack (1947), Bedser (1953), Lock 1958), Fazal Mahmood (1959), Wes Hall (1962), Trueman (1963), Bedi (1973), Roberts (1976), Willis (1978), Waqar Younis (1993), Donald (1998), Philander (2013), Anderson (2017), Rabada (2018)

Absentees include Lohmann, CTB Turner, Mailey, Ted McDonald, Larwood, Keith Miller, Laker, Benaud, Chandrasekhar, Snow, Holding, Garner, Kapil Dev, Walsh, Wasim Akram and Kumble.

 

[peterhrt]

An alternative view from Simon Wilde, cricket correspondent of The Sunday Times. Taken from his book Number One, published in 1998.

Number One Batsmen

1768-87: John Small
1787-1805: William Beldham
1805-25: Lord Frederick Beauclerk
1825-33: William Ward
1834-49: Fuller Pilch
1849-60: George Parr
1860-66: Robert Carpenter
1866-86: Grace
1886-94: Shrewsbury
1895-96: Grace (again)
1896-1902: Ranjitsinhji
1902-12: Trumper
1912-28: Hobbs
1928-30: Hammond
1930-49: Bradman
1949-55: Hutton
1955-60: May
1960-70: Sobers
1970-76: Barry Richards
1976-90: Viv Richards
1990-94: Gooch
1994-95: Lara
1995-97: Steve Waugh

Number One Bowlers

1770-83: Lumpy Stevens
1783-98: David Harris
1799-1826: Interregnum. No obvious candidate.
1827-49: William Lillywhite
1850-53: William Clarke
1853-57: John Wisden
1858-66: John Jackson
1867-71: George Freeman
1872-78: Alfred Shaw
1878-87: Spofforth
1887-93: CTB Turner
1893-98: Tom Richardson
1898-1901: Lockwood
1901-19: Barnes
1919-24: Jack Gregory
1924-30: Tate
1930-32: Grimmett
1932-46: O'Reilly
1946-50: Lindwall
1950-54: Bedser
1954-56: Lindwall (again)
1956-59: Laker
1959-64: Trueman
1965-68: Lance Gibbs
1968-72: Snow
1972-83: Lillee
1983-90: Marshall
1990-93: Ambrose
1993-97: Warne

 

[Arun singh]

Steve Smith is best batsman in Test and Odi Cricket. He is Phenomenal batsman in modern time. he has very good average in all country.

 

[IcarianStyles]

Steve Smith averages 57.56 away from home with a strong sample size of 4260 runs scored. That's all-time great status!



Just to give context, Steve Smith has the highest away average of all time among everyone else that has scored more away runs than him!

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Just to give context, Steve Smith has the highest away average of all time among everyone else that has scored more away runs than him!

Uh...

 

[TheJediBrah]

Uh...

He's right isn't he

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Think carefully about why this stat doesn't mean much.

 

[Coronis]

Think carefully about why this stat doesn't mean much.

I mean it doesn’t mean that much, but it does show he’s been better away than others with similar or longer careers. (You’d expect that though with him having one of the highest overall averages which I think is your point?)

ftr, batsmen with 1000+ away runs who average more than Smith:

Bradman 2674 @ 102.84
Barrington 3459 @ 69.18
Hammond 4245 @ 66.32
Hobbs 3475 @ 59.91

then you have Smith 4260 @ 57.56

and these other batsmen also above 55: Border, Sutcliffe, Waugh, Hutton, de Villiers and of course Broad.

 

[Gob]

I mean it doesn’t mean that much, but it does show he’s been better away than others with similar or longer careers. (You’d expect that though with him having one of the highest overall averages which I think is your point?)

ftr, batsmen with 1000+ away runs who average more than Smith:

Bradman 2674 @ 102.84
Barrington 3459 @ 69.18
Hammond 4245 @ 66.32
Hobbs 3475 @ 59.91

then you have Smith 4260 @ 57.56

and these other batsmen also above 55: Border, Sutcliffe, Waugh, Hutton, de Villiers and of course Broad.

Another important thing to mention is that there are no minnows

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

I'm saying you could make the exact same statement about Devon Conway after he scored 200 on his debut in England.