Player of the Match

[Shady Slim]

I've never been sold on the "MOTM must be from the winning team" idea. It should definitely matter, but it shouldn't be a pre-requisite.

so i am in massive agreement with tjb here and i've been thinking of it a lot as re the world cup.

a lot of people, now messi has won the world cup, will say that the messi and ronaldo debate is done and messi wins - they're right, to me, fwiw, messi is the clear winner. however, messi got that world cup in the penalty shootout. messi kicked the first goal, and from there, his teammates all converted while the french didn't. theoretically, it could have so transpired that after messi converted, all of the argentines ballsed their kicks while the french converted. messi himself wouldn't have done anything any different, and yet, for many, the effect on messi's legacy would have been wildly different. why do we let these factors dictate how we view performance?

 

[GIMH]

You raise a good question. I’ll let someone else answer and come back with a clearer head tomorrow.

 

[Anil]

so i am in massive agreement with tjb here and i've been thinking of it a lot as re the world cup.

a lot of people, now messi has won the world cup, will say that the messi and ronaldo debate is done and messi wins - they're right, to me, fwiw, messi is the clear winner. however, messi got that world cup in the penalty shootout. messi kicked the first goal, and from there, his teammates all converted while the french didn't. theoretically, it could have so transpired that after messi converted, all of the argentines ballsed their kicks while the french converted. messi himself wouldn't have done anything any different, and yet, for many, the effect on messi's legacy would have been wildly different. why do we let these factors dictate how we view performance?

i don't think the vast majority of football fans would have let that factor dictate how they viewed messi if that had happened...in fact i would say his fans would have increased in number regardless of the result of the final...of course his fans, neutrals (non-ronaldo fans) and even people who are not necessarily huge soccer fans are thrilled/happy with the result, since everyone (rightly) considers it as an exclamation point for a legendary career...

 

[weeman27bob]

Player of the match never going to someone on the losing team is dumb.

 

[Shady Slim]

i don't think the vast majority of football fans would have let that factor dictate how they viewed messi if that had happened...in fact i would say his fans would have increased in number regardless of the result of the final...of course his fans, neutrals (non-ronaldo fans) and even people who are not necessarily huge soccer fans are thrilled/happy with the result, since everyone (rightly) considers it as an exclamation point for a legendary career...

yeah don't get me wrong as you point out many hardcore and serious soccer fans who weren't sold on messi's GOAT credentials along the way were converted even before the win, but i'm just using messi as a recent example of the phenomena.

if everything went the same up to and including messi nailing his penalty but the rest of the argentina players miss theirs and the french convert, they're giving the player of the match award to mbappe instead, in spite of messi and mbappe each doing no different to what they did in our world. it's just an example of the phenomena

 

[Anil]

yeah if france had won, mbappe would have got the player of the match award...but that's just what usually happens across all sports, cricket is no different...i agree it is dumb and people would've been disappointed for (not in) messi but i still don't think the result would have been seen as his failure or diminished his stature in any way...

 

[Furball]

however, messi got that world cup in the penalty shootout. messi kicked the first goal, and from there, his teammates all converted while the french didn't. theoretically, it could have so transpired that after messi converted, all of the argentines ballsed their kicks while the french converted.

This ignores the importance Messi had throughout the tournament.

It's also how it goes. He was superb in the 2014 World Cup as well but Higuaín bottling a one-on-one (as well as bottling it in the 2015 and 16 Copa America finals) means that his detractors still had the 'what's he won at international level' question.

His (and Cristiano Ronaldo's to be fair to the greasy haired ****) achievement is the relentless consistency they've both shown at the highest level over nearly 20 years. Even greats of the previous generation like Zidane, who is laughably spoken of in the same breath, had seasons of utter mediocrity at club level. Zidane in (I think) 1998/99 had 1 goal and 1 assist all season for Juventus - Messi and Ronaldo would get crucified for that lack of output.

 

[ripper868]

Not football, but chalk one up for fans NOT choosing MOTM via online votes etc - Joe Launchbury, RWC 2015 after Australia (aided by an earlier Wales victory of England) dumped England out of their own tournament by a score of 33-13.

As you can see, he was thrilled to receive the award.

 

[GIMH]

This ignores the importance Messi had throughout the tournament.

It's also how it goes. He was superb in the 2014 World Cup as well but Higuaín bottling a one-on-one (as well as bottling it in the 2015 and 16 Copa America finals) means that his detractors still had the 'what's he won at international level' question.

His (and Cristiano Ronaldo's to be fair to the greasy haired ****) achievement is the relentless consistency they've both shown at the highest level over nearly 20 years. Even greats of the previous generation like Zidane, who is laughably spoken of in the same breath, had seasons of utter mediocrity at club level. Zidane in (I think) 1998/99 had 1 goal and 1 assist all season for Juventus - Messi and Ronaldo would get crucified for that lack of output.

Even in the 98 and 06 WCs - Zidane missed a couple of games through suspension in 98 and in 06 though he won the Golden Ball he was bang average until rediscovering the old spark in the knockout to drag France to the final, which he of course arguably cost them. His displays in the knockouts showed his brilliance but across tournaments as a whole didn’t IMO perform as consistently as Messi did in this one or indeed 2014.

 

[Shady Slim]

This ignores the importance Messi had throughout the tournament.

i'm not saying messi wasn't important through the tournament - to you and me, who are not casual room temp iq sports fans we can evaluate a player's performance in a tournament as elite regardless of if they ultimately come out with the title. my point is just more that if after messi and mbappe scored their successful penalties, if all the argentines subsequently missed and all the french hit, mbappe wins the player of the match and potentially player of the tournament too, in spite of their respective performances not being different.

it's just a case study of that broader point

 

[GoodAreasShane]

i'm not saying messi wasn't important through the tournament - to you and me, who are not casual room temp iq sports fans we can evaluate a player's performance in a tournament as elite regardless of if they ultimately come out with the title. my point is just more that if after messi and mbappe scored their successful penalties, if all the argentines subsequently missed and all the french hit, mbappe wins the player of the match and potentially player of the tournament too, in spite of their respective performances not being different.

it's just a case study of that broader point

Press x to doubt

 

[Shady Slim]

Press x to doubt

oi
...i'm not a casual

 

[shortpitched713]

so i am in massive agreement with tjb here and i've been thinking of it a lot as re the world cup.

a lot of people, now messi has won the world cup, will say that the messi and ronaldo debate is done and messi wins - they're right, to me, fwiw, messi is the clear winner. however, messi got that world cup in the penalty shootout. messi kicked the first goal, and from there, his teammates all converted while the french didn't. theoretically, it could have so transpired that after messi converted, all of the argentines ballsed their kicks while the french converted. messi himself wouldn't have done anything any different, and yet, for many, the effect on messi's legacy would have been wildly different. why do we let these factors dictate how we view performance?

Honestly think that Mbappe deserved the Golden Ball over Messi, in addition to the Golden Boot, but I guess that's neither here nor there as to your overall point anyway.

I think things like "Player of the Series", Tournament, MVPs are highly contentious at the best of times. There is an argument to be made that by restricting it to the winning side, you do make it easier to select, as you're simply picking the best player on that team, as opposed to best on the pitch, court, etc.

The problem is when you don't have a hard an fast rule about it, and are inconsistent. "Should always be the best player on the winning team, except for some extraordinary effort from a losing team player", is exactly such an inadequate criteria. Either a losing player has equal access to the award based only on their individual performance regardless of team outcome, or is ineligible, for mine.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

will say that the messi and ronaldo debate is done and messi wins - they're right, to me, fwiw, messi is the clear winner.

there was never any debate. Messi has always been better than Ronaldo. It's like comparing Smith and Kohli in Tests.

 

[GIMH]

I was genuinely surprised Mbappe turned up for the semi after being stuck in Kyle Walker’s pocket for the quarters. Messi came through in every round for the Argies and had the better tournament of the two IMHO.

 

[shortpitched713]

I was genuinely surprised Mbappe turned up for the semi after being stuck in Kyle Walker’s pocket for the quarters.

Lol that's the most one eyed pro England view of that game that I can imagine. What I saw was an England team willing to always shadow Mbappe with extra defensive cover and asked France to beat them with something else, which they did by virtue of excellent finishing, something which characterized France throughout the tournament.

 

[Furball]

Mbappe didn't do much through the knockouts tbf.

 

[shortpitched713]

He was great against Poland. His verticality is essential to France's attack, and the reason that Poland set up as incredibly cautious as they did. For mine, he's the successor to the style of Ronaldo, but if anything, a better dribbler on the ball than him.

And his occasional inconsistencies with finishing have been obliterated on evidence of this tournament, so for me he's basically the perfect forward. Everyone goes crazy over the skills of "ball players" like Messi, and rightly so in Messi's case, but for mine Mbappe has been the shining talent of football since even after the last World Cup in 2018.

 

[GIMH]

Lol that's the most one eyed pro England view of that game that I can imagine. What I saw was an England team willing to always shadow Mbappe with extra defensive cover and asked France to beat them with something else, which they did by virtue of excellent finishing, something which characterized France throughout the tournament.

Nah, Walker owned him. I am assured by Man City fans that the same has been known to happen in the Champions League. Doesn’t take anything away from France’s overall win against us, but Mbappe was anonymous that day. Not a criticism you can level at Messi for any of Argentina’s knockouts really

 

[shortpitched713]

Nah, Walker owned him. I am assured by Man City fans that the same has been known to happen in the Champions League. Doesn’t take anything away from France’s overall win against us, but Mbappe was anonymous that day. Not a criticism you can level at Messi for any of Argentina’s knockouts really

Main criticism I had for Messi, is his impact, and eventual goal tally was inflated by a lot of penalties. Which is not something that Mbappe could feast on as much throughout the tournament. I honestly do think that Messi played actually a bit better than Mbappe in the final, despite the nerve that Mbappe showed to hit his penalties in that match.

Still doesn't change the fact that in impact during open play for Mbappe > Messi, if we look at the totality of the tournament, for mine.