Kohli’s India vs Imran’s Pakistan

[subshakerz]

Just so we're clear, Imran's teams drew vs Vivs WI led teams not Lloyds. Holding, Garner missed the 86, 88, and 90 series and Lloyd had retired by then. If anyone thinks that those 3 players wouldn't have made a difference, then they are kidding themselves.

Yes they definitely would. Having said that, WI were still a better team so drawing against them, especially away, is a credible achievement. Imran was the only captain to win a test in the WIs in the 80s actually.

 

[Godard]

Agreed, equal to Ind’s win in Aus 2018, but smaller than Aus 20-21, considering the team they had left(even tho Kohli wasn’t there, but the unit was one that consisted of players like Pant, Siraj etc, which had been personally backed by him).

 

[Sunil1z]

That Aus 2018 side was nothing special.
Only thing special about that victory was that we were 1st Asian side to win a Test series in Aus .

 

[Sunil1z]

Agreed, equal to Ind’s win in Aus 2018, but smaller than Aus 20-21, considering the team they had left(even tho Kohli wasn’t there, but the unit was one that consisted of players like Pant, Siraj etc, which had been personally backed by him).

He backed Pant so much that he didn’t play him in the 1st Test . And Siraj was doing well in domestics and India A . Nothing to do with Kohli.
20-21 was Rahane’s victory not Kohli’s

 

[Sunil1z]

Someday we need an answer whose idea was it to leave England’s Test series mid-way . India’s performance in international cricket went downhill after that incident.

 

[Godard]

That Aus 2018 side was nothing special.
Only thing special about that victory was that we were 1st Asian side to win a Test series in Aus .

Their batting was quite weak sure, but they had a potent bowling attack.

 

[Sunil1z]

@OverratedSanity
Here is India’s performance after 4th Test in England
1. Humiliated in WT20 2021
2. Lost Test series in SA
3 . Lost 5th Test and couldn’t win Test series in Eng
4. Couldn’t make even Final of Asia cup
5. 10 wkt loss in WT20 semi-final
2022 was extremely disastrous for us . Could have even lost Test in Bangladesh.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Kohli’s India. Perhaps the Asian side which achieved the most, two series wins in Aus, a near win in Eng(I mean even the match they lost, they were missing their best by of the series Rohit), gave a pretty good fight to SA in SA for two series, and near unprecedented home domination for a Asian side at home. Plus also won series in SL and WI.

Yeah, but Imran's Pakistan managed to draw in NZ.

 

[Godard]

He backed Pant so much that he didn’t play him in the 1st Test . And Siraj was doing well in domestics and India A . Nothing to do with Kohli.
20-21 was Rahane’s victory not Kohli’s

It is illogical to decide basis one test, whether Kohli backed Pant or not. Before the 2018-19 Aus series, Pant hadn’t been great or anything unique in tests, but he was chosen for Border Gavaskar 2018-19, which established him as a test player. And Kohli had backed Siraj in IPL for a long time. Plus Kohli also backed Rahane himself, since Rahane has been having a pretty horrible streak of 20 or so tests prior to the 20-21 Aus series.

 

[subshakerz]

He backed Pant so much that he didn’t play him in the 1st Test . And Siraj was doing well in domestics and India A . Nothing to do with Kohli.
20-21 was Rahane’s victory not Kohli’s

Yes. To the point that if Kohli stayed on after the 1st test, I am pretty sure India would have lost the series 2-1.

 

[Daemon]

I don’t think it’s really in the spirit of the discussion to omit results from when the captain was temporarily absent.

My interpretation of the thread is that we’re saying “Kohli’s India” as a way to refer to the team and it’s core group of players during the general period of time where Kohli happened to lead the side.

If we start omitting results it becomes more of a direct assessment of Kohli’s actual leadership, which is next to impossible to assess anyways.

tldr - it’s about the team, not the captain

 

[Godard]

Yes. To the point that if Kohli stayed on after the 1st test, I am pretty sure India would have lost the series 2-1.

Why?

 

[subshakerz]

I don’t think it’s really in the spirit of the discussion to omit results from when the captain was temporarily absent.

My interpretation of the thread is that we’re saying “Kohli’s India” as a way to refer to the team and it’s core group of players during the general period of time where Kohli happened to lead the side.

If we start omitting results it becomes more of a direct assessment of Kohli’s actual leadership, which is next to impossible to assess anyways.

tldr - it’s about the team, not the captain

Yeah but you omit Imran you omit an ATG all-rounder and the best peak bowler. He was half of Pakistan's success in that time.

 

[subshakerz]

Why?

Because as captain under him India weren't the best under pressure.

 

[Godard]

Yeah but you omit Imran you omit an ATG all-rounder and the best peak bowler. He was half of Pakistan's success in that time.

Yes but this thread is only comparing Imran and Kohli basis captaincy. A captain’s job isn’t to be the best player in the world or in the team, but to make that team the best

 

[Godard]

Because as captain under him India weren't the best under pressure.

It’s not like Rahane was given full freedom as captain, the tactics came from Shastri(whom shared a common ideology and approach with Kohli). Plus Shastri himself praised Kohli as well as Rahane, saying that the team wasn’t built overnight, and that Kohli was a strong inspirational figure.

 

[Shady Slim]

tbh i dont reckon india wins the most recent series here with kaptain kohli, though not because virat's a bad skipper vs rahane or anything but rather just because that win was irreplicable lightning in a bottle. kohli india that's fully healthy they probably maybe win, but, ceteris parabis, make the only change that kohli's in (ashwin still gets hurt, etc), i reckon they don't win.

 

[honestbharani]

Rahane's captaincy was the only reason we did not beat NZ 2-0 at home though. It is absolutely stupid to think everything about that series was Rahane, when Rahane himself said it was Virat who wanted Jadeja to be his replacement for the MCG test and advised playing 5 bowlers and 2 spinners.

 

[Sunil1z]

Rahane's captaincy was the only reason we did not beat NZ 2-0 at home though. It is absolutely stupid to think everything about that series was Rahane, when Rahane himself said it was Virat who wanted Jadeja to be his replacement for the MCG test and advised playing 5 bowlers and 2 spinners.

Well NZ 10th wicket batted for 10 overs in 1st Test . I thought that was the reason we won 1-0 instead of 2-0

 

[honestbharani]

Well NZ 10th wicket batted for 10 overs in 1st Test . I thought that was the reason we won 1-0 instead of 2-0

Nah.. if you saw the test, you would know the only reason it ever got to that stage was absolutely stupid captaincy from Rahane.