TheJediBrah
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My biggest fan, thanks for coming
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Is this the second biggest choke in WC history?
- Thread starter Adorable Asshole
- Start date
Daemon
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maybe their ranking is just falling because each generation brings a whole bunch of new cricketers.
If they were top 10 say 30 years ago it doesn’t mean people downgraded them if they rank them at like 25 now.
Shady Slim
International Coach
really hits me to know that 16 yo teja still posted with more logic, clarity, and poise than i do now at 23
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Kallis' best in ODI came before 2003. He possibly struggled to keep up with increasing scoring rates post that even though he maintained his average. May be that's when you started watching him.
Just checked on statsguru to back this. He got 22 of his 32 MoM awards before 2003 in 185 games, that is one every 8.4 games. Post 2003, he got 10 MoMs in 143 games, one every 14.3 games.
Sorry but you are wrong again.
Last edited:
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
And here's me at 40+ thinking what's even the difference between 16yo and 23yo.
TheJediBrah
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Dude MOM awards are a horrible measure. I'm not saying you're completely wrong but you're not proving anything that way
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
I am of the opinion that you put Kallis in any strong ODI team, he actually weakens it. I hold an opposite view of him in tests.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
True but it's disproportionate for batsmen than for bowlers (with exception of legends like Richards or Tendulkar)
TheJediBrah
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Ankitj is definitely right about that. Recency bias is batsman-dominated in ODIs because of the changes in the game
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
TIL Shady is over a year younger than me.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Great, we have made some progress then
. You still maintain Kallis will in future be rated higher than today and thus buck this trend?
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
2017 ranking vs. 2011 ranking on CW. See how batsmen from 20th century moved (De Silva, Chappell, Miandad, Greenidge, Abbas etc.) vs how the bowlers moved (Marshall, Holding, Donald, Roberts, Waqar etc.). Leave out bonafide legends near top 10. Batsmen have nearly all moved down. Bowlers are mixed, on average remaining more or less unmoved.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Amazing that you’re so grumpy so young and he’s so stupid so old
OverratedSanity
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Mostly because of the game being progressively more batsman centric isn't it? It's harder and harder for bowlers to stick out so only a rare few like Starc and Bumrah have managed it.
In fact in the two lists, kallis seems to be one of the few who's ranking has plummeted. Others like Dean jones, Mark Waugh, Saeed Anwar, even greenidge have only moved a handful of spots, which is normal as more and more cricketers are added to the mix.
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
The only team against which Kallis has a SR of above 90 is Netherlands. He smashed it @107 per 100 balls against them. He scored @ SR of 87 against BD and 80 against Kenya. Against some of the better teams, he trundled along. SR of 69 against NZ and Pakistan and 65 against England, 72 against India and Australia. For someone who played until 2013, that is poor.
The weaker teams were not good enough to prevent his runs, so he scored relatively faster against them. Better teams at times did not try to get him out, as that would be detrimental to their chances, with Klusener, Boucher and Pollock warming the bench.
The weaker teams were not good enough to prevent his runs, so he scored relatively faster against them. Better teams at times did not try to get him out, as that would be detrimental to their chances, with Klusener, Boucher and Pollock warming the bench.
TheJediBrah
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I maintain that Kallis sucks, like your faceGreat, we have made some progress then
He played in what was pretty consistently a very strong ODI team and strengthened it considerably, at least until the very tail end of his career.
If you start talking about things like hypothetical ATG teams, ya, he would weaken them badly. It's a bit of a CWism to judge players on how they would sit in ATG teams, which leads to some people believing he was actually poor.
He'd be rubbish for just about every team in the current era if he played a similar way, but I don't think anyone growing up in the current era would bat the same way.
Adorable Asshole
International Regular
Kallis just sucked. I doubt he would even make a top 50 ODI bat of all time.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Guys see what I found. See who is at #9 in ODI batsmen list when Wisden released it in 2002. I don't lie when I tell you guys that Kallis was considered a pretty solid (if not great) ODI batsmen up until 2003 (or little later). Notice how no one on that thread objected to Kallis' ranking. Because that's how he was viewed at the time.Here is the list of players Wisden ranked as the all-time best. The rankinds are based on each performance and various different factors.
TEST BATSMEN:
1.Sir Donald Bradman (Australia)
2.Sachin Tendulkar (India)
3.Sir Vivian Richards (West Indies)
4.Sir Garfield Sobers (West Indies)
5.Alan Border (Australia)
6.Jack Hobbs (England)
7.Ken Barrington (England)
8.Sunil Gavaskar (India)
9.Greg Chappell (Australia)
10.Brian Lara (West Indies)
TEST BOWLERS:
1.Muttiah Muralitharan (Sri Lanka)
2.Sir Richard Hadlee (New Zealand)
3.Sydney Barnes (England)
4.Shane Warne (Australia)
5.Clarrie Grimmett (Australia)
6.Glenn McGrath (Australia)
7.Dennis Lillee (Australia)
8.Malcolm Marshall (West Indies)
9.Imran Khan (Pakistan)
10.Courtney Walsh (West Indies)
ODI BATSMEN:
1.Sir Vivian Richards (West Indies)
2.Sachin Tendulkar (India)
3.Brian Lara (West Indies)
4.Dean Jones (Australia)
5.Michael Bevan (Australia)
6.Sourav Ganguly (India)
7.Mark Waugh (Australia)
8.Zaheer Abbas (Pakistan)
9.Jacques Kallis (South Africa)
10.Saeed Anwar (Pakistan)
ODI BOWLERS:
1.Wasim Akram (Pakistan)
2.Allan Donald (South Africa)
3.Waqar Younis (Pakistan)
4.Glenn McGrath (Australia)
5.Joel Garner (West Indies)
6.Saqlain Mushtaq (Pakistan)
7.Muttiah Muralitharan (Sri Lanka)
8.Shaun Pollock (South Africa)
9.Shane Warne (Australia)
10.Dennis Lillee (Australia)
I personally don't agree with some of the omissions. For example, where is Ambrose? Worse yet....where is Agarkar???
His stocks started falling later in his career when he was found wanting in chasing 435 and 370 odd against Australia, and generally couldn't keep pace with changing ODI game. And about a decade since his retirement, there is further revisionist downgrading. Some of you ***** almost succeeded in gaslighting me into thinking my memory was wrong.