Jacques Kallis vs Sachin Tendulkar

[StephenZA]

How does this apply to my comments in here? I can't see it

You mean this one... after I had said exactly the same thing...

You think pointing out a near 10-run difference in strike rate over the course of a career is an attempt to find a reason to suit a pre-conceived opinion? That's just a ridiculous take and I don't know why you are trying to assert it. Is it really that hard for you to accept that it might be the other way around? Don't try and "cOnTeXt" me either. I watched live Kallis cost SA Test matches on multiple occasions with unecessarily defensive batting when they were on top in the game.

I don't agree with all the "holes in the record" bull**** that gets thrown around these threads though. Even though he played 166 Tests the samples are still susceptible to happenstance. Kallis averaging poorly in England over his career could be heavily affected by other factors.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Stephen used to bring this up and there are other posters who agreed with his case in one of the threads I can't remember.

yeah I know he did and he got mercilessly mocked for it, that's not "getting a pass"

"Broken fingernail" even became a cricket web meme

 

[TheJediBrah]

You mean this one... after I had said exactly the same thing...

Sorry I still don't get it. You don't like that I said Kallis wasn't as good as Lara/Sachin using Strike-rate as a factor? because that's "quantitative"?

 

[StephenZA]

Sorry I still don't get it. You don't like that I said Kallis wasn't as good as Lara/Sachin using Strike-rate as a factor? because that's "quantitative"?

Firstly it was not a comment directed at you, it was a general comment of how these arguments go.

Secondly, yes you have no need to talk about Kallis SR to prefer Tendulkar over Kallis. Kallis SR is not really why you prefer or think that Tendulkar was a better player. You just think he is a better player, I would not argue with that... I would argue with the SR rate being the reason why or even a valid reason to think Tendulkar is a better player.

 

[Jack1]

Firstly it was not a comment directed at you, it was a general comment of how these arguments go.

Secondly, yes you have no need to talk about Kallis SR to prefer Tendulkar over Kallis. Kallis SR is not really why you prefer or think that Tendulkar was a better player. You just think he is a better player, I would not argue with that... I would argue with the SR rate being the reason why or even a valid reason to think Tendulkar is a better player.

You are winning this thread. This is so funny.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Firstly it was not a comment directed at you, it was a general comment of how these arguments go.

Secondly, yes you have no need to talk about Kallis SR to prefer Tendulkar over Kallis. Kallis SR is not really why you prefer or think that Tendulkar was a better player. You just think he is a better player, I would not argue with that... I would argue with the SR rate being the reason why or even a valid reason to think Tendulkar is a better player.

Thank you for clarifying that. I still think you're mostly wrong. Swap Sachin and Kallis with each other in the games they played (assuming batting only) and SA will win a few more matches and India will win a few less. I think that's a certainty and while strike-rate is obviously not the only factor, it is definitely a factor.

Kallis has drawn matches that could have been won with a more aggressive innings, I can't say the same about any other ATG level bats that I've seen. You're trying to dismiss it as a factor but that just doesn't fly.

 

[StephenZA]

Thank you for clarifying that. I still think you're mostly wrong. Swap Sachin and Kallis with each other in the games they played (assuming batting only) and SA will win a few more matches and India will win a few less. I think that's a certainty and while strike-rate is obviously not the only factor, it is definitely a factor.

Kallis has drawn matches that could have been won with a more aggressive innings, I can't say the same about any other ATG level bats that I've seen. You're trying to dismiss it as a factor but that just doesn't fly.

Tendulkar was not from SA, Tendulkar was not asked to play the way Kallis was asked to play. And while I agree that maybe his slow batting might have effected some games we could have won; when he was asked to play as the anchor in the SA team between the late 90s to mid 2000s he also won/drew us many games that if he had got out the SA batting lineup would have never survived or won. SA had brittle top order and a long aggressive batting tail. But that tail did better against tired bowlers. If you look at the team SR from that period you will find SA as pretty comparative. And in the final 1/3rd of Kallis's career his SR is well above 50, you know when SA had a strong top order.

 

[anil1405]

Kallis batting slow has got a lot more to do with the SA setup and their approach to batting in test cricket. For some strange reason the entire team used to shut shop and score slow when they could've accelerated in so many situations.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Tendulkar was not from SA, Tendulkar was not asked to play the way Kallis was asked to play. And while I agree that maybe his slow batting might have effected some games we could have won; when he was asked to play as the anchor in the SA team between the late 90s to mid 2000s he also won/drew us many games that if he had got out the SA batting lineup would have never survived or won. SA had brittle top order and a long aggressive batting tail. But that tail did better against tired bowlers. If you look at the team SR from that period you will find SA as pretty comparative. And in the final 1/3rd of Kallis's career his SR is well above 50, you know when SA had a strong top order.

*affected

I've seen you make these arguments before, it's illuminating and I appreciate the insight. It doesn't change my opinion that it affects his value as a player when compared with other ATGs but it's something at least.

 

[StephenZA]

Kallis batting slow has got a lot more to do with the SA setup and their approach to batting in test cricket. For some strange reason the entire team used to shut shop and score slow when they could've accelerated in so many situations.

Its the conservative nature of the SA mindset and its not just sport... better to not lose than to win. Very frustrating sometimes, and also explains the problems in WC etc. It tends to get you good series wins and fight from behind, but not great for a winning team trying to dominate. And its not just cricket its across many of SA sports attitudes.

 

[ankitj]

Bar @trundler from ever picking Kallis in drafts.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Its the conservative nature of the SA mindset and its not just sport... better to not lose than to win. Very frustrating sometimes, and also explains the problems in WC etc. It tends to get you good series wins and fight from behind, but not great for a winning team trying to dominate. And its not just cricket its across many of SA sports attitudes.

But then why are Smith and ABD more attacking than other SA batsmen?

 

[ashley bach]

Kallis has lost about 50 comparison threads in a row(hopefully due to our good judgement) and suddenly he's supposed to get the spoils up against
the little Indian maestro?

 

[StephenZA]

But then why are Smith and ABD more attacking than other SA batsmen?

Because individual people are complex characters whereas broad generalizations is just just that...

 

[subshakerz]

Kallis is a Lara and Sachin level bat.

Somehow you have discovered this new found knowledge years after he retired.

If he was that good, he would have been recognized as that good when he was playing.

Even at his peak, there were at least 2-3 batsmen that the cricket world would rate ahead of him.

 

[subshakerz]

Tendulkar was not from SA, Tendulkar was not asked to play the way Kallis was asked to play. And while I agree that maybe his slow batting might have effected some games we could have won; when he was asked to play as the anchor in the SA team between the late 90s to mid 2000s he also won/drew us many games that if he had got out the SA batting lineup would have never survived or won. SA had brittle top order and a long aggressive batting tail. But that tail did better against tired bowlers. If you look at the team SR from that period you will find SA as pretty comparative. And in the final 1/3rd of Kallis's career his SR is well above 50, you know when SA had a strong top order.

Another myth.

Please tell 90s Lara and Tendulkar about batting with a brittle top order.

 

[Coronis]

Again, I literally saw him cost SA Test-match wins through overly defensive batting while in a strong position, on multiple occassions. It matters.

May I ask for examples?

How does this apply to my comments in here? I can't see it

This should be a standard escape post for people in every thread.

 

[Coronis]

Another myth.

Please tell 90s Lara and Tendulkar about batting with a brittle top order.

Not that I necessarily agree with that post but SA’s top order was definitely worse.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=20;qualval1=innings;spanmax1=31+Dec+1999;spanmin1=01+Jan+1990;spanval1=span;team=3;team=4;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

[OverratedSanity]

Not that I necessarily agree with that post but SA’s top order was definitely worse.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=20;qualval1=innings;spanmax1=31+Dec+1999;spanmin1=01+Jan+1990;spanval1=span;team=3;team=4;team=6;template=results;type=batting

Than India's in the 90s? Absolutely not. We were shambolic until 96 or so and still mediocre apart from Dravid and Sachin after that.

 

[subshakerz]

Because individual people are complex characters whereas broad generalizations is just just that...

So did Kallis bat conservatively because he was naturally conservative or he was dictated to do so?