Why can't Pakistan produce prolific fast bowlers anymore?

[subshakerz]

It is difficult for other fan bases to grasp the exasperation of being a Pakistan fan and seeing the next big bowling talent emerge, getting excited but also knowing they will not make the distance. Sure it happens with other players in other teams but the sheer regularity of unfulfilled talent and half baked careers is honestly depressing.

For me, it started with Mohd Zahid, the fastest bowler I have seen who quickly burned down. Then Mushtaq Ahmed was kicked out of the team like 1-2 years after his worldclass peak. Saqlain was injured and nobody cared when he left the team. Shoaib kept breaking down. Sami took a fifer on debut, had pace like fire and then became an expert in bowling in a straight line. Shabbir had a great start to his career and then was found to be a chucker. Asif and Aamir had their double shame. Ajmal turned out to be a chucker too. Junaid Khan left out to the pasture. Mohd Abbas was earmarked as a future great, then went nowhere. Yasir was supposed to Warne's successor and now will be forcibly retired soon.

Now it's Shaheen and Naseems turn so I am trying not to get too hyped.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

How many fast bowlers around the world have crossed 200 wickets since 1995? Can't be too many

England have had more do it since then than in the 30 years before.

Gough, Caddick, Flintoff. Hoggard, Harmison, Broad and Anderson and Stokes will get there too.

I guess playing on puddings in UAE for a long time hasn't helped and various reasons of injury and being a helmet stopped the best players.

 

[BazBall21]

Kemar Roach 252 wickets in 73 matches @26.83 is quite impressive. Never rated him but seems better than Starc who i rate highly.

Starc is better than Roach. Roach is good but a home bully.

 

[Xuhaib]

I think Wasim and Waqar were quite selfish they never mentored Zahid and Shoaib like Imran mentored them. In a substandard system like Pakistan a good mentor is very important for player development.

As Subshakerz said its very common for a Pakistani bowler to never recover his potency after first major injury that's why I am quite worried about Shaheen after his return from his knee surgery

 

[Flem274*]

Starc is better than Roach. Roach is good but a home bully.

I went and checked because I assumed this to be true as well, but Starc's respectable away average is strongly supported by averaging 17 in both Sri Lanka (good country for swing bowling these days - so many swing bowlers have done well there) and the Windies (varies but their batting isn't the strongest).

31 in England, 50 in India, 34 in Pakistan and South Africa and 53 in the UAE. He's not a bad bowler or anything but he isn't quite getting the returns on his talent either.

In comparison, Roach has a couple of howler countries (Australia standing out and 1 test in India) but has been serviceable without being outstanding away from home (33 in England, 31 in NZ, 26 in SA, 32 in SL) and dominates at home in a manner Starc doesn't (21 vs 26 average).

They're very comparable.

 

[Migara]

Supply was never an issue with Pakistan, its shelflife. Even Australia is only able to produce true worldclass ATG talent at best once a decade.

Pakistan actually needs more Siddle, Broad type reliable bowlers who can scaffhold the attack for the worldclass talents like Shaheen to shine. Just 1-2 steady bowlers capable of long careers. Otherwise it's way too much pressure for any Pakistani ace to deliver long term. The closest we had is Umar Gul.

The closest were actually Abdul Razzaq and Azhar Mahmood. Pakistan should have played them both and asked them to be steady bowlers. Selectors wanted strike bowlers out of them which they were not capable of. With their batting, Pakistan could have easily fielded three strike bowlers and six batsmen.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Starc is better than Roach. Roach is good but a home bully.

Starc averages 40 against the top order

 

[Prince EWS]

Starc averages 40 against the top order

True but that's not actually as bad as it sounds. Tailenders averaging 5-20 means every bowler improves their stats by bowling to them, and what we consider a 'good average' isn't the same as what a good average to the top order would be.

40 is still high but the ability to blow away the tail for less than replacement value is still worth something. Maybe he shouldn't open the bowling though.

 

[Flem274*]

As someone who has been traumatised by watching opposition tailenders fluke slog runs after the team I support has done the hard work, bowlers who can smoke them out for no runs are great men and you should never sniff at them.

 

[Kirkut]

As someone who has been traumatised by watching opposition tailenders fluke slog runs after the team I support has done the hard work, bowlers who can smoke them out for no runs are great men and you should never sniff at them.

Tell me about it!!

Especially as an India fan, I had a frustrating experience where we sent Bell, KP and Cook for cheap, but allowed Broad / Moeen / Curran to score freely. Heck, even Anderson made his highest score of 81 against us!

Wickets are wickets, all are valued.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah but Starc bad

 

[Xuhaib]

Supply was never an issue with Pakistan, its shelflife. Even Australia is only able to produce true worldclass ATG talent at best once a decade.

Pakistan actually needs more Siddle, Broad type reliable bowlers who can scaffhold the attack for the worldclass talents like Shaheen to shine. Just 1-2 steady bowlers capable of long careers. Otherwise it's way too much pressure for any Pakistani ace to deliver long term. The closest we had is Umar Gul.

Yeah agree to this we needed more Sarfraz Nawaz, Umer Gul, Aqib Javed types in our system. Mostly it's the selectors fault they cast aside a steady performer as soon as they find new shiny toy and the cycle keeps getting repeated. Take eg of Mohd Abbas he fell of his peak after his shoulder surgery and as soon as selectors saw he can't maintain his low 20 average he was cast away even though a declining Abbas averaging near around 30 with a RPO of 2.5 bowling 25 overs a day could be a perfect foil for the young pacers around him.

 

[BazBall21]

Not really bothered defending Starc. Not his biggest fan.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Tell me about it!!

Especially as an India fan, I had a frustrating experience where we sent Bell, KP and Cook for cheap, but allowed Broad / Moeen / Curran to score freely. Heck, even Anderson made his highest score of 81 against us!

Wickets are wickets, all are valued.

Harbhajan turned into Bradman against us in one series!

 

[CricAddict]

Tell me about it!!

Especially as an India fan, I had a frustrating experience where we sent Bell, KP and Cook for cheap, but allowed Broad / Moeen / Curran to score freely. Heck, even Anderson made his highest score of 81 against us!

Wickets are wickets, all are valued.

Bresnan too. Broad Bresnan Anderson all made merry against India that series.

 

[subshakerz]

The closest were actually Abdul Razzaq and Azhar Mahmood. Pakistan should have played them both and asked them to be steady bowlers. Selectors wanted strike bowlers out of them which they were not capable of. With their batting, Pakistan could have easily fielded three strike bowlers and six batsmen.

Yeah good point. Every Pakistan pacer was expected to be a striker and it doesn't work that way. Imran used Aqib Javed as a pretty decent foil for Wasim and Waqar in his time.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah agree to this we needed more Sarfraz Nawaz, Umer Gul, Aqib Javed types in our system. Mostly it's the selectors fault they cast aside a steady performer as soon as they find new shiny toy and the cycle keeps getting repeated. Take eg of Mohd Abbas he fell of his peak after his shoulder surgery and as soon as selectors saw he can't maintain his low 20 average he was cast away even though a declining Abbas averaging near around 30 with a RPO of 2.5 bowling 25 overs a day could be a perfect foil for the young pacers around him.

Yes. Shoaib was saddled with Sami and Razzaq as partners for most of his peak who completely let any pressure be wasted.

 

[Starfighter]

Sri Lanka (good country for swing bowling these days - so many swing bowlers have done well there)

IIRC Starc's performance in SL was not much swing but mainly sheer pace on deliberately prepared slow, low, grassless turners. Certainly not an 'easy series' like you're disingenuously making out.

 

[Flem274*]

IIRC Starc's performance in SL was not much swing but mainly sheer pace on deliberately prepared slow, low, grassless turners. Certainly not an 'easy series' like you're disingenuously making out.

good on ya. sri lanka is pretty good for swing bowling before christmas and i don't remember the details of starc's tour there anymore. he's comparable to roach performance wise overseas, and im not here to knock him, so you don't need to throw shade.

 

[Starfighter]

A new test nation starting out with Fazal and Khan Mohammad is practically unheard of and over the last 20 odd years there's always been someone around who's started well. The issue is obviously those guys fading away, rather than the production of fast bowling talent.

Fazal and Khan are hardly the best examples considering they were medium pacers and Fazal was poor off the matting.

You can take your Guls and Sarfrazes (both averaging well north of 30) whoever mentioned Aaqib (54 test wickets) must be taking the piss. Pakistan is a barren wasteland when it comes to what you could term good to very good bowlers (say, average 25-29.9), especially pace bowlers (I'm more lenient on spinners but Qadir was terrible away, Mushtaq was good for two years and Kaneria was ugh). I have no doubt the generally poor pitches have a lot to do with this.

And the ones they did were cheats, innit?

Curious the causes attributed by Imran and Wasim only applied to them and the marks confined themselves to one side of the ball.