Greater cricketer: Wasim Akram or Jacques Kallis

[trundler]

Yes those hundreds are quite quality. That deadly Aussie attack of Hughes, Taylor, Campbell and Rackemann. Zimbabwe which you have no problem removing from Kallis’ record. 90’s Murali and Vaas.

Australia in Australia is obviously fierce opposition regardless. You're not comparing 2000s Bangladesh to 80s Australia, are you? That's simply disingenuous.

 

[BazBall21]

At this rate I could see Trundler making an audacious case for Ray Lindwall > Jacques Kallis. Lindwall’s batting was a similar level to Wasim’s.

 

[Coronis]

Australia in Australia is obviously fierce opposition regardless. You're not comparing 2000s Bangladesh to 80s Australia, are you? That's simply disingenuous.

With that attack? With two blokes who average 40 and two who average 30? I’m sure Banger’s put out worse but hey, definitely not incomparable. I also thought we were talking about Zimbabwe not Bangladesh.

 

[trundler]

Had a feeling Pollock would demolish Kapil but this being one-sided has surprised me. Akram doesn’t fare well too well on CW though. Wonder if Pollock could beat him.

It's just a function of demographics really. Akram's insane longevity, gun performances against WI/Australia (the former as a foetus learning on the job) and poor fielding support are all afterthoughts/non factors when rating Akram but these factors are very real and tangible to followers of Pakistan cricket. When compared to other great pacers (except Walsh), what Akram did after '96 is irrelevant to me when evaluating his career as that's already a full ATG career by that point. You may disagree but hey I'm consistent with it. Akram definitely gets short-changed on CW because there's no push back when someone suggests he benefited from having poor fielders by bowling more in swinging yorkers.

 

[BazBall21]

It's just a function of demographics really. Akram's insane longevity, gun performances against WI/Australia (the former as a foetus learning on the job) and poor fielding support are all afterthoughts/non factors when rating Akram but these factors are very real and tangible to followers of Pakistan cricket. When compared to other great pacers (except Walsh), what Akram did after '96 is irrelevant to me when evaluating his career as that's already a full ATG career by that point. You may disagree but hey I'm consistent with it. Akram definitely gets short-changed on CW because there's no push back when someone suggests he benefited from having poor fielders by bowling more in swinging yorkers.

People who are very cold numbers-rooted don’t like the nuanced fielding support argument. Takes them out of their comfort zone a bit. He was very good at whacking it in (proved that in Australia) so would have benefitted from a competent fielding unit.

 

[trundler]

With that attack? With two blokes who average 40 and two who average 30? I’m sure Banger’s put out worse but hey, I thought I mentioned Zimbabwe not Bangladesh.

Zimbabwe in 2000s were atrocious also and did not even have Flower. Kallis took 2/5 of his fivers against Bangladesh who were much, much worse than 80s Australia to state the obvious. 2000s Zimbabwe too. Terrible slippery slope.

 

[trundler]

At this rate I could see Trundler making an audacious case for Ray Lindwall > Jacques Kallis. Lindwall’s batting was a similar level to Wasim’s.

I also rate Lindwall as being on par with the best ever as a bowler so you're not even exaggerating. ?

 

[BazBall21]

And also I think that while players getting extra points for maintaining performance right to the end in a long career like Hadlee for example is fair, Akram’s case of falling off towards the end is certainly more forgivable than someone like Botham’s. Akram was unlucky to get type 1 diabetes while Botham’s collapse was mostly due to poor discipline.

 

[BazBall21]

I also rate Lindwall as being on par with the best ever as a bowler so you're not even exaggerating. ?

I wasn’t. I think you’d vote for Lindwall if you were feeling brave enough.

 

[trundler]

People who are very cold numbers-rooted don’t like the nuanced fielding support argument. Takes them out of their comfort zone a bit. He was very good at whacking it in (proved that in Australia) so would have benefitted from a competent fielding unit.

No one ever talks about his gun performances against WI in the '80s. Performances against the best are valued highly around these parts and ironically are used as a reason to dock Kallis a few points. Yet Akram doing very well against both West Indies and Australia isn't brought up because most people don't remember those.

 

[Coronis]

Zimbabwe in 2000s were atrocious also and did not even have Flower. Kallis took 2/5 of his fivers against Bangladesh who were much, much worse than 80s Australia to state the obvious. 2000s Zimbabwe too. Terrible slippery slope.

I never even began the discussion about whether or not that 1990 Australia side’s bowling was minnow like anyway, it was in response to your comment that Akram’s centuries were against quality attacks, which they were clearly not, the only one you could argue being his one against Sri Lanka. And shockingly yes Kallis has a low wpm and amount of 5’fers due to how quality the rest of South Africa’s attack was during his career. Honestly its more impressive to me he did get that many wickets considering who he was competing with.

 

[BazBall21]

No one ever talks about his gun performances against WI in the '80s. Performances against the best are valued highly around these parts and ironically are used as a reason to dock Kallis a few points. Yet Akram doing very well against both West Indies and Australia isn't brought up because most people don't remember those.

I feel like performance against the strongest bowling attacks is treated as the single most important factor for batsmen during evaluation, whereas it is more about distribution across conditions for bowlers and because averages are less volatile you have less chance as a bowler of getting away with an average that isn’t God-like.

 

[trundler]

I never even began the discussion about whether or not that 1990 Australia side’s bowling was minnow like anyway, it was in response to your comment that Akram’s centuries were against quality attacks, which they were clearly not, the only one you could argue being his one against Sri Lanka. And shockingly yes Kallis has a low wpm and amount of 5’fers due to how quality the rest of South Africa’s attack was during his career. Honestly its more impressive to me he did get that many wickets considering who he was competing with.

Kallis's bowling stats are heavily boosted by minnow bashing. Akram's big knocks came against non minnow opposition. In either case, I don't particularly rate their secondary skills and on primary skills, Akram wins to me.

 

[BazBall21]

On a side note Trundler have you seen the video of the Pakistani commentators (including Akram) dancing with “Live the game love the game” in the background after the win over India?

 

[trundler]

On a side note Trundler have you seen the video of the Pakistani commentators (including Akram) dancing with “Live the game love the game” in the background after the win over India?

Link it pls. Don't think I have.

 

[BazBall21]

Link it pls. Don't think I have.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578336315845709824

 

[trundler]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578336315845709824

That is delightfully cringe. Thanks

 

[BazBall21]

That is delightfully cringe. Thanks

Waqar awkwardly clapping not knowing what to do or say

 

[subshakerz]

Posters are treating 1.5 wickets a game as if it's nothing which is a bit unfair. I saw Wasim bat throughout his career and would comfortably take Kallis' reliable 20 overs a game and near a wicket an innings over Wasim's batting output.

But I still put Wasim over Kallis based on their primary skills where it's more important and Wasim edges him there.

 

[ZK$]

When compared to other great pacers (except Walsh), what Akram did after '96 is irrelevant to me when evaluating his career as that's already a full ATG career by that point.

Yeah, Wasim is another example of someone who gets penalized for having an unusually long career.