Ian Botham v Shaun Pollock

[Gob]

No

yes

 

[subshakerz]

Averages are not the only stat that matters. Centuries, 5fors and wickets per match all give a better indication of the impactfulness of an allrounder than mere averages. I'm fairly certain peak era Botham achieved all of these more frequently than Imran during his 45/20 average period.

I wouldn't necessarily say peak era Botham was a better cricketer than Sobers, but he probably was a more complete allrounder, as Botham would have made the England side both as a batsman and as a bowler, whilst Sobers might not have made the WI side as a bowler. Miller doesn't compare to peak Botham as he bowled far less and took far fewer big hauls (just look at their respective number of 5 wicket innings). Hadlee and Pollock were nowhere near as complete in the all rounder steaks as peak Botham because they only made a couple of centuries in their entire career compared to 13 centuries in just his first 64 Tests for Botham.

Botham in his peak failed against WI with bat and bowl in nine tests home and away, so that puts a question mark for me as to how great he was in that time.

Not saying he got cheap wickets and runs otherwise but Imran in his peak had three man of the series against WI in a row including a ton which Botham never scored against them.

The relative quality of the sides they faced and how they did is why I am more inclined to rate Imran's peak as better though. Though I will admit Botham was a better batsman than Imran in that time, Imran with the ball was simply in the middle of the greatest pace bowling peak ever.

 

[Bolo.]

Picking between Pollock and Botham is a bit like making a choice between a guy who will solo you a win in 1 game and a guy who will put you in what should be a winning position in 3 games.

 

[subshakerz]

Posters are having a hard time assessing Botham because of what weight you give his peak versus his entire career.

Botham in the final analysis was a somewhat better version of Chris Cairns once you sum up his ATG+ and poor phases together. Would that be more value to the side than Pollock? I don't think so. Simply because consistency in quality performance trumps sporadic showings of greatness.

 

[mr_mister]

At the end of the day averages of 33 and 28 is still pretty respectable.

Averaging 33 with 14 tons is just mental lol. I'm guessing nobody has hit so many averaging that low?

 

[Migara]

Averages are not the only stat that matters. Centuries, 5fors and wickets per match all give a better indication of the impactfulness of an allrounder than mere averages. I'm fairly certain peak era Botham achieved all of these more frequently than Imran during his 45/20 average period.

I wouldn't necessarily say peak era Botham was a better cricketer than Sobers, but he probably was a more complete allrounder, as Botham would have made the England side both as a batsman and as a bowler, whilst Sobers might not have made the WI side as a bowler. Miller doesn't compare to peak Botham as he bowled far less and took far fewer big hauls (just look at their respective number of 5 wicket innings). Hadlee and Pollock were nowhere near as complete in the all rounder steaks as peak Botham because they only made a couple of centuries in their entire career compared to 13 centuries in just his first 64 Tests for Botham.

Sobers would have made most of the English side as a bowler alone especially post Underwood, given the spin stocks they had. Sobers would have easily made in to the WI side of 80s on his bowling alone as the fourth bowler bowling pace or spin and averaging 32.

Secondly Imran easily is a better rounded allrounder than Botham becasue he had a period of 45 with bat and 20 with ball. No amount of centuries while averaging 37 with bat and 25ish with ball can rival a run which is about twice as long the latter.

No mate, this doesn't look good under any criteria you take.

In summary

Player        Batting            Bowling
Sobers        Exceptional        Good
Kallis        Exceptional        Good
Imran        Good            Exceptional
Miller        Good            Very Good
Hadlee        Average            Exceptional
Botham        Good            Good
Kapil        Good            Good
Pollock        Good            Exceptional
Shakib        Good            Good

There may be theories that players are more than the sum of their disciplines. However I'd rate ones who were exceptional in a discipline over others.

 

[Migara]

yes

No

 

[h_hurricane]

Looking at Botham's record, it is interesting that performance against India beefs up his batting stats. He averages 33.54 overall and 70.64(!) against India. 5 hundreds and 5 fifties in just 17 innings. He cashed in on some extremely poor attacks by us, but at the same time produced some great performances like the Mumbai test. Without India, his batting average is 28.97.

 

[subshakerz]

Looking at Botham's record, it is interesting that performance against India beefs up his batting stats. He averages 33.54 overall and 70.64(!) against India. 5 hundreds and 5 fifties in just 17 innings. He cashed in on some extremely poor attacks by us, but at the same time produced some great performances like the Mumbai test. Without India, his batting average is 28.97.

There is also the charge that he cashed in against sides weakened by WSC losses. This is somewhat true but then he also had spectacular performances against strong Aussies sides too in his peak.

The big hole is his WI record which is the worst of the four all-rounders of the era.

 

[honestbharani]

yes

No

Peak CC.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

At the end of the day averages of 33 and 28 is still pretty respectable.

Averaging 33 with 14 tons is just mental lol. I'm guessing nobody has hit so many averaging that low?

Allan Lamb averages 36 with 14 tons. Obviously not as low as 33, but for a specialist batsman it looks a bit odd, especially in 79 Tests. A century every five Tests was Geoff Boycott's method of determining a batsman's value. Though that might have been because he was just inside that himself.

 

[BazBall21]

Clyde Walcott, one hundred every three Tests.

 

[Gob]

No

Yes

 

[h_hurricane]

Allan Lamb averages 36 with 14 tons. Obviously not as low as 33, but for a specialist batsman it looks a bit odd, especially in 79 Tests. A century every five Tests was Geoff Boycott's method of determining a batsman's value. Though that might have been because he was just inside that himself.

It might also be because his great foe Ian Chappell was just outside that criteria.

 

[Anil]

Peak CC.

in an inverted world maybe...

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Averaging 33 with 14 tons is just mental lol. I'm guessing nobody has hit so many averaging that low?

Correct. The list is dominated by players from England:

Lamb (36.1) and Hussain (37.2) also scored 14 100s, while Atherton (37.7) got 16. The first non-English player is Attapattu (39 & 16).

If dropped to 10 100s or more, Botham's 33.5 is still the lowest, followed by Kraigg Brathwaite (currently 10 100s @34.5), Gatting (10 @ 35.6), and Shastri (11 @ 35.8).

If dropped to 9 100s, Graeme Wood (31.83) is the lowest, then followed by Botham.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Re Botham's batting he never played for averages and often threw his wicket away in search of quick runs.

 

[thierry henry]

Re Botham's batting he never played for averages and often threw his wicket away in search of quick runs.

So he often got out on purpose, was a terrible player for a big chunk of his career....and I've even heard rumours of him engaging in occasional fisticuffs?

If CW has taught me anything it's that these are all attributes of a superior player

 

[AndrewB]

There is also the charge that he cashed in against sides weakened by WSC losses. This is somewhat true but then he also had spectacular performances against strong Aussies sides too in his peak.

In fact of his first 3 full series against Australia (ignoring the one-off Test in 1980), the WSC series was his worst:
1978-9: 291@29 and 23@24
1979-80: 187@37 and 19@19
1981: 399@36 and 34@20

He did cash in against Pakistan in 1978, though: 212@70 and 13@16.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Another thing about Botham was that he was a superstar. Along with Daley Thompson he was probably the most famous English sports star of the 80s. Now there would be 50 random footballers more famous than Root, Stokes, and Anderson.

Meanwhile Pollock wouldn't have even been the most famous cricketer in the Proteas (would have been behind Cronje, Donald, Kallis, and Smith during his career), and well behind Bafana Bafana footballers amongst the black majority, or the likes of Joost van der Westhuizen, Os Du Rant, and Chester Williams amongst rugby fans.