New Zealand fast bowlers who are 'definitely' better than Kapil Dev

[Mike5181]

No I said Bond didn't even demonstrate the level of durability those (fragile) guys as is indicated by the qualifier 'even'. You never know until you know because plenty of pace bowlers fizzle out after a good start. Bond didn't even achieve much in his 18 tests unlike the other guys I listed. You aren't applying the same level of scrutiny to his record that the forum usually does. It's heavily propped up by minnow bashing and green seamers. You're just falling for the pace meme. Bond didn't do anything more than Muhammad Abbas objectively.

You are talking to people that probably watched 90% of his 120 internationals. No one who's seen that much of Bond will seriously entertain the idea that he could have "fizzled out".

He wasn't a durable bowler but people also forget he lost like 18 months or so because of the ICL ban.

 

[Bahnz]

Bond did SFA in tests. Take out the gimme wickets vs club standard Zimbang outfits and the lottery pitches in the 02/03 India series and his record reads 51 wickets at 28.54. So comparable to Southee, minus the long-term consistency.

Buuuuuuut...I don't see how anyone could watch his new ball bowling in ODI cricket and not conclude he was a pretty special bowler who would've been likely to take 200+ wickets at sub-25 if he'd been able to stay fit in tests. Still that's all it is - unfulfilled potential.

 

[ankitj]

Kiwis punching above their weight in this thread.

 

[Noobmaster69]

Factoring in both formats,
Hadlee
Bond
Boult
And probably Southee
Only tests
Things get a bit more trickier I suppose
Hadlee is the only with a definitive win here.
I suppose Wagner Southee and Boult may edge past Kapil
Jamieson is almost certain to by the end of his career
In ODIS, there are a quite a few

 

[vandem]

Bond did SFA in tests. Take out the gimme wickets vs club standard Zimbang outfits and the lottery pitches in the 02/03 India series and his record reads 51 wickets at 28.54. So comparable to Southee, minus the long-term consistency....

Bond played 18 tests. Take out the outlier Zimb and India 02/03 series and he played 14 tests.

He was a match winner in 4 of these 14 games.
Windies in Bridgetown, 2-34 (Gayle, Sarwan to have WI 2-6) and 5-78 (4th innings, 3 top order, 2 tail) in a rare NZ away win.
Windies in Auckland, 2-57 (Sarwan, Lara) and 5-69 (4th innings) in a 27 run win, MoM.
Sri Lanka in Christchurch, 3-43 and 4-63 in a 5 wicket win, MoM.
Pakistan in Dunedin, 5-107 (4 of top 6) and 3-46 (4th innings, all top 6) in a 32 run win, MoM.

He had significant contributions in 3 of these 14 games.
Ban in Hamilton, 4-47 and 2-28 in an innings win.
Ban in Wellington, 1-21 and 4-54 in another innings win.
Windies in St Georges, 5-104 in a drawn match where Gayle's 204 had threatened a massive lead, but Bond's wickets (4 of top 6) kept lead to 100 and helped NZ escape with a draw.

Not SFA.

His stats in the 14 selected games took a hit from his debut series in Aussie (3 wickets @ 96). If you want to get picky about outlier exclusions, take away his debut series, Zim and Indie 02/03 and you have 59 wickets @ 22.32.

Not SFA.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Noobmaster69 with the new username of the year thus far

 

[honestbharani]

Noobmaster69 with the new username of the year thus far

Are we picking a fight with Thor?

 

[Bahnz]

Bond played 18 tests. Take out the outlier Zimb and India 02/03 series and he played 14 tests.

He was a match winner in 4 of these 14 games.
Windies in Bridgetown, 2-34 (Gayle, Sarwan to have WI 2-6) and 5-78 (4th innings, 3 top order, 2 tail) in a rare NZ away win.
Windies in Auckland, 2-57 (Sarwan, Lara) and 5-69 (4th innings) in a 27 run win, MoM.
Sri Lanka in Christchurch, 3-43 and 4-63 in a 5 wicket win, MoM.
Pakistan in Dunedin, 5-107 (4 of top 6) and 3-46 (4th innings, all top 6) in a 32 run win, MoM.

He had significant contributions in 3 of these 14 games.
Ban in Hamilton, 4-47 and 2-28 in an innings win.
Ban in Wellington, 1-21 and 4-54 in another innings win.
Windies in St Georges, 5-104 in a drawn match where Gayle's 204 had threatened a massive lead, but Bond's wickets (4 of top 6) kept lead to 100 and helped NZ escape with a draw.

Not SFA.

His stats in the 14 selected games took a hit from his debut series in Aussie (3 wickets @ 96). If you want to get picky about outlier exclusions, take away his debut series, Zim and Indie 02/03 and you have 59 wickets @ 22.32.

Not SFA.

Why are you leaving in his wickets v Bangladesh? In any event… yeah, it’s 4 games. What do you want me to say? Like, I’ve already said I think Bond was good for a great test career if his body had been up to it, but when all he’s got in his corner are a couple of MOTM performances against a very weak WI side and a couple more against touring sub-continent teams… I mean it’s thin as a resume for greatness. Toilet paper thin. He never toured India, never played England. Got crushed by the Aussies in his debut series. Did well in his one test v SA but broke down injured halfway through the game. Bond was a great ODI bowler. He’s a what if in tests.

 

[honestbharani]

He’s a what if in tests.

Maybe Vandem is the Watcher?

 

[Shady Slim]

For someone who has been watching sport since 60s, you sure do rely a lot on stats..

L&L says in the post he rates dev second highest despite flagging earlier in the post he has a lower average than the listed eight and you come at him for using stats too much wtf????

maybe don't take random snipes at other posters for no reason chief

 

[Zinzan]

'would've'

Aunty, balls, uncle etc. I don't think Bond is being treated unfairly because he didn't hit an arbitrary number. He just didn't have a full career and never dealt with the challenges associated with that. His home average of 19 is as meaningless as his away average of 33 (excluding Zimbos) because of samplesizelol. Kapil played 16 tests in a single year as the lone pacer.

Edit: I didn't see the post above noting he had years where he played more actually.

Let's look at this another way. If we polled 50 past Test batsmen who played sometime between 1974-2009 (Kapil and Bond's career span), and we asked them who they'd be more worried facing in a Test match, do you honestly think hand on heart the majority would say Kapil?

And assuming they said Bond, which I'm almost certain the majority would, wouldn't that pretty much answer the question for us?

 

[Socerer 01]

Let's look at this another way. If we polled 50 past Test batsmen who played sometime between 1974-2009 (Kapil and Bond's career span), and we asked them who they'd be more worried facing in a Test match, do you honestly think hand on heart the majority would say Kapil?

And assuming they said Bond, which I'm almost certain the majority would, wouldn't that pretty much answer the question for us?

ask them the same question with Lee and Gillespie or even McGrath and many would say the former wouldn’t they? almost as if batsmen overrate pace to the point of pace is pace yaar

in any case Bond’s odi exploits are bleeding over into perceptions of his test career here. only reason why I assume NZers are still high on the Bond for tests horse is because they haven’t got a genuine fast bowler since him who has played in tests properly. If Lockie had test figures and a remotely long career similar to at least Southee Bond would be talked of as nothing more than a what if or statistical oddity other than the ATG with the red ball status that is being shoved on him here

 

[trundler]

Let's look at this another way. If we polled 50 past Test batsmen who played sometime between 1974-2009 (Kapil and Bond's career span), and we asked them who they'd be more worried facing in a Test match, do you honestly think hand on heart the majority would say Kapil?

And assuming they said Bond, which I'm almost certain the majority would, wouldn't that pretty much answer the question for us?

Why isn't Akram universally recognised as the GOAT then? Or Lillee.

 

[Zinzan]

Bond played 18 tests. Take out the outlier Zimb and India 02/03 series and he played 14 tests.

Bond did SFA in tests. Take out the gimme wickets vs club standard Zimbang outfits and the lottery pitches in the 02/03 and his record reads 51 wickets at 28.54.

Lol, rightio... Give me any virtually any players' career stats, batsman or bowler (bar Bradman) and I'll make them look ordinary by omitting a select few games/series. I'm sure I can have Dale Steyn averaging 28 too with a few omissions.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Andy Ganteaume

 

[Zinzan]

ask them the same question with Lee and Gillespie or even McGrath and many would say the former wouldn’t they? almost as if batsmen overrate pace to the point of pace is pace yaar

in any case Bond’s odi exploits are bleeding over into perceptions of his test career here. only reason why I assume NZers are still high on the Bond for tests horse is because they haven’t got a genuine fast bowler since him who has played in tests properly. If Lockie had test figures and a remotely long career similar to at least Southee Bond would be talked of as nothing more than a what if or statistical oddity other than the ATG with the red ball status that is being shoved on him here

I should have been more specific with the question as you're right, I didn't mean the fear of being hit, but instead asking them who would be more likely in taking their wicket.

 

[Zinzan]

Why isn't Akram universally recognised as the GOAT then? Or Lillee.

Why would he be?

 

[Chrish]

maybe don't take random snipes at other posters for no reason chief

You can use this advice when talking about politics.

 

[Shady Slim]

You can use this advice when talking about politics.

i don't take random swipes at people when talking politics honestly, i'm actually quite restrained as regards the ad hominem?

 

[Chrish]

i don't take random swipes at people when talking politics honestly, i'm actually quite restrained.

That’s your perception.