New Zealand fast bowlers who are 'definitely' better than Kapil Dev

[the big bambino]

I've never really been an Anderson fan but what you're saying here is at least 5 years out of date. Anderson has been ATG level in almost all conditions for a while now. He doesn't compare overseas to how he is with the duke in overcast England but he's still very, very good.

In the last 5 years he's averaged 23 away from home. He hasn't been a Philander-like conditions-reliant trundler for years

At least 5 years? Bloke's been bowling for 20 so it's true for the bulk of his career even if you allow for what you said is true, and I think it's debatable. The last series in Oz was played on the greenest pitches I've seen so Anderson wasn't really out of his element. Maybe he's had the same fortune in other places as well. It's like he never left home ... But come on now - you'd rate someone like Archer a greater threat if the pitches in the last ashes here were like the one before. And Anderson (despite his last 5 years) as the support bowler. Neither do i think he's that much better than Philander.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Trent Boult is probably better than Kapil too

Southee would have been a few years ago too but he's dropped out of the race

 

[TheJediBrah]

At least 5 years? Bloke's been bowling for 20 so it's true for the bulk of his career even if you allow for what you said is true, and I think it's debatable. The last series in Oz was played on the greenest pitches I've seen so Anderson wasn't really out of his element. Maybe he's had the same fortune in other places as well. It's like he never left home ... But come on now - you'd rate someone like Archer a greater threat if the pitches in the last ashes here were like the one before. And Anderson (despite his last 5 years) as the support bowler. Neither do i think he's that much better than Philander.

I think Jofra Archer is massively overrated and not that useful a Test bowler. When he's on, he's on and looks deadly but he's often not been "on" and looks mediocre

also chucks it

 

[Flem274*]

I'm bored of the longevity card. It's obviously not meaningless but it often just shuts down good discussions when you can just say "didn't play for as long, therefore not as good".

Even though he was fitter, did more and played for longer, Kapil Dev was not as good at bowling as Shane Bond. That should count for something at least, even if it doesn't mean you think Bond was better overall

Yeah agreed, though this mainly comes up when non-NZers pick NZ sides. They'll pick Hadlee, Southee, Boult or something and we're like "Bond and Cowie" and people tell us that no, Tim Southee really is better than Shane Bond because he played more games so arguably the greatest talent in our history sits on the bench.

It's definitely an opinion they have there. I wouldn't call it good. For a game tomorrow Ryan Harris plays ahead of Mitchell Starc and Bumrah over Shami.

 

[Johan]

Boult Maybe , but he hasn't had his declining years yet , we'll see in a few years.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah agreed, though this mainly comes up when non-NZers pick NZ sides. They'll pick Hadlee, Southee, Boult or something and we're like "Bond and Cowie" and people tell us that no, Tim Southee really is better than Shane Bond because he played more games so arguably the greatest talent in our history sits on the bench.

It's definitely an opinion they have there. I wouldn't call it good. For a game tomorrow Ryan Harris plays ahead of Mitchell Starc and Bumrah over Shami.

Particularly nonsensical when you're picking a hypothetical team. If you're picking a team you assume everyone's fit. Why would you pick Southee over Bond because Southee had a longer career lol makes no sense

 

[trundler]

I'm bored of the longevity card. It's obviously not meaningless but it often just shuts down good discussions when you can just say "didn't play for as long, therefore not as good".

Even though he was fitter, did more and played for longer, Kapil Dev was not as good at bowling as Shane Bond. That should count for something at least, even if it doesn't mean you think Bond was better overall

We don't know that. That's really only a guess based on optics and optics are deceiving. If Mark Waugh had never gotten to play past 10 tests, you guys would think he was better than Crowe based on this. Kapil came out on top against peak WI whereas Bond averaged 96 against Australia. It was two tests though so that's a pretty meaningless comparison. You're comparing a guy who never had to play a full series to a guy who carried his team's bowling for 17 years whilst only missing one test. It's just not fair. Are Bishop, Bumrah and Akhtar better than Dev? Yeah sure but Bond didn't that demonstrate that level of adaptability or even durability. Being able to last a test match is a fairly important part of bowling.

 

[the big bambino]

I think Jofra Archer is massively overrated and not that useful a Test bowler. When he's on, he's on and looks deadly but he's often not been "on" and looks mediocre

also chucks it

I rate Archer but can see that. Wouldn't change the opinion on Anderson when pitches are flat like 17/18.

(Not sure if he pegs them but he does have a dodgy elbow.)

 

[TheJediBrah]

We don't know that. That's really only a guess based on optics and optics are deceiving. If Mark Waugh had never gotten to play past 10 tests, you guys would think he was better than Crowe based on this. Kapil came out on top against peak WI whereas Bond averaged 96 against Australia. It was two tests though so that's a pretty meaningless comparison. You're comparing a guy who never had to play a full series to a guy who carried his team's bowling for 17 years whilst only missing one test. It's just not fair. Are Bishop, Bumrah and Akhtar better than Dev? Yeah sure but Bond didn't that demonstrate that level of adaptability or even durability. Being able to last a test match is a fairly important part of bowling.

You're right, I'm not saying it doesn't matter. Of course staying on the park is vital for a sportsman. But actually being better at bowling when fit should at least count for something

 

[Athlai]

Trent Boult is probably better than Kapil too

Southee would have been a few years ago too but he's dropped out of the race

Huh

 

[trundler]

Kapil > Bond has to be peak CW contrarianism lol , Hadlee > Bond > Kapil > other NZ pacers

Nah, CW contrarianism is picking Barrington ahead of Dravid or Peter May ahead of Martin Crowe.

 

[Johan]

Nah, CW contrarianism is picking Barrington ahead of Dravid or Peter May ahead of Martin Crowe.

who the **** puts May ahead of crowe

 

[ZK$]

Imagine how highly Brett Lee would be rated here if he got injured and never played again after his 10th test match when he was averaging 19.38.

 

[Flem274*]

We don't know that. That's really only a guess based on optics and optics are deceiving. If Mark Waugh had never gotten to play past 10 tests, you guys would think he was better than Crowe based on this. Kapil came out on top against peak WI whereas Bond averaged 96 against Australia. It was two tests though so that's a pretty meaningless comparison. You're comparing a guy who never had to play a full series to a guy who carried his team's bowling for 17 years whilst only missing one test. It's just not fair. Are Bishop, Bumrah and Akhtar better than Dev? Yeah sure but Bond didn't that demonstrate that level of adaptability or even durability. Being able to last a test match is a fairly important part of bowling.

look at this guy acting like Bumrah and Akhtar are known for being fit. Get outta here lol.

With bowlers you just know. You don't leave them in FC to prove themselves like you do with batsmen and you're sure as hell not going to do it for your nations all time side. Sucks to suck batsmen.

Bond made it through the majority of his tests. I can think of 2 injuries, maybe 3 during a test match. Huge JAMODI series were where he had most of the injuries, and he wouldn't be risked in those today, like Bumrah often isn't.

If you're gonna Richard and argue Chats is better than Bond then you should see a doctor and cut down your salt intake.

 

[h_hurricane]

Axar Patel > Shane Warne and Bill O'Reilly. Who cares about longevity and performance across a variety of conditions after all.

 

[Xix2565]

Hot take, NZ aren't good apart from one bowler.

 

[Athlai]

Yeah that's fair, he may not make NZs top 10 bowlers, but Kapil would struggle to make the top 25 of some of the better Test countries

 

[Johan]

...

 

[Xix2565]

Except India > NZ.

 

[ZK$]

Excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, Bond played 14 matches averaging 26.22.

After his 14th test, Brett Lee was averaging 23.54.