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New Zealand fast bowlers who are 'definitely' better than Kapil Dev
- Thread starter Gob
- Start date
Line and Length
Cricketer Of The Year
As I have stated, I use stats to support my opinions. As a retired Maths teacher, I have always had a fascination with figures. As for your non-too-subtle suggestion re my "claim to have seen players as far back as Trueman", my earliest viewing of Test cricket was on black and white TV in the 50s. I still remember the euphoria of watching Edrich and Compton taking England to an Ashes winning victory at The Oval in 1953.
If you find statistics "weird" (and FYI, I don't use stats guru) I suggest you are missing an interesting aspect of a great game.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
That's interesting. NZ didn't get TV until 1960 despite being very rich in the early 1950s (per capita income almost that of the US due to wool boom), but we were very insulated and isolated.
Chrish
International Debutant
Oh no I love statistics! In fact far more than I should. But that’s perhaps I am a degenerate who spends more time analyzing numbers than watching the game. Guys like me and @subshakerz have already caused irreversible damage to this once a great forum.
Don’t need more of us here..
Don’t need more of us here..
Line and Length
Cricketer Of The Year
I remember TV being something everyone in England wanted so they could watch the Coronation. Black and white 9" screens meant whole families huddled round to get some sort of view.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
No it’s still reversible. Please kindly do the needful.
Johan
International Debutant
Kapil " failing " in England with one man of series and one match winning and potentially series winning spell ( 4/52 ) which was crucial in India beating England in 86? interesting.
in 79 he averaged 30.9 with the ball , even though bedi averaged 35+ and played 3 matches and literally every other indian bowler was averaging 50+ , kapil did pretty well with that context.
without context Kapil's stats don't mean much , in 82 he was the second top scorer in England and took multiple wickets too , in this series literally none except willis averaged less then 35 and Kapil was awarded with MOS
in 86 series he averaged 30.6 but had a crucial spell in the first game of 4/52 which won India the test and he won the man of the match in that test.
in 90 series , another bat dominates the ball series , Best bowler of the series in Angus Frazer averaged 28.75 with the ball , Eddie hemmings was the second best at 41 bowling average , and third best was Devon Malcolm who averaged 62 so.... yeah , but Kapil did extremely well with the bat averaging 55 though there were 9 50+ averaging Batsmen in the series with gooch having bradman+ stats , kapil's bowling figures in england are really just effected by this otherwise they are perfectly fine with some match deciding spells as well.
in 78 series where he is pretty much a debutant , a grand total of 80 wickets fell for 3892 runs , a 48 wicket gap between each , which is bonkers, combining with him being a literal debutant , the series is just a horrible thrashing for India and Dev , chandrasekhar averaged 48 and Bedi 74 , Imran was at 31 , funnily Chandra was the fourth best bowler and his average is 48 , third best is at 39.
in 82 series , there were 6 matches and
collective 133 wickets fell for 5775 runs , a 43.4 runs gap each , still high as hell but Kapil did well here , he bowled 40 over in one match and took 7/220 carrying the entire bowling lineup , and a 8/85 where he bamboozled Pakistan , He was the second best bowler after imran here , no one here except immy averaged below 32 btw so another display of these wickets.
84 series is just...bad? 2 matches played , both draws because of how ridiculous the wickets were , 2000+ runs in two games and only 41 wickets fell , 52 runs between each wicket and Kapil for some reason only bowled 35 overs
89 series is also pretty bat dominate Ball as a series but in same vein as 82 series , Kapil was the four highest wicket taker here next , here Wasim bowled 204.4 overs , took 18 wickets at 30.61 , Manoj Prabhakar bowled 181.2 overs and took 16 wickets at 33.88 , Imran bowled 185.3 overs and took 13 wickets at 38.77 and Kapil bowled 168.4 overs , took 12 wickets at 31.50 , Abdul Qadir bowled 109 overs , took 6 wickets at 57.6.
Kapil and wasim were top 2 in average ( 31.5 and 30.6 lol ) followed by Prabhakar and Imran ( 33.88 and 38.77 lol ) , waqar was there but bowled too less ( averaged 38.5 if wondering).
all in all , perfectly explain Lillee's stats there , PCB probably pulled the same bull**** with Lillee , literally no stand out bowler only performance except 82 Imran
Kapil didn't fail in south africa , the first time he went was in 92 where he bowled 22 overs first game , 6 of them maidens , 3/43 , takes out the two openers and then pringle who was playing a kapil esque knock of 33* ( 27 ) and the economy rate was 1.95 , comes back the second inning and bowls 19 overs , 11 of them maiden and enconomy of 1 , overall bowling 41 overs , 17 maidens , 3 wickets
Kapil then bowls 25 overs in the next game , 4 maidens , takes out hansie cronje who played 63 balls and took the knock from 26-4 to 73-4 ( before Kapil took him out ) , Kapil again comes back and bowls 24 overs next inning , keeping it tight gives around 50 runs at economy of approx 2
third test Kapil bowls 24 overs the first inning , 6 maidens , economy of 1.88 with figures of 2/45
then when batting comes kapil comes out to bat at 27-5 against a raging donald ( who took 7/84 that inning ) , scores 129 out of 180 , saving india from an inning defeat and out scoring the rest of indian batting by country mile , one of the best knocks of all time
kapil only bowls 5 overs in last inning , still keeps it tight and gets a maiden , 1.8 economy
in the final test first inning Kapil dev bowls 29 overs , keeps it extremely right at an ER of 1.45 , bowls 8 maidens , takes 1/42
next inning he again bowls 17 overs , takes 1/29 , bowls 4 maidens and has an economy rate of 1.4
Kapil ends with 40.4 average with 200+ runs , 4th best average of the series and best from an indian Batsmen
The people ahead of him are Cronje , who played one more inning and only has 4 more runs , Jonty rhodes who played 2 more innings and had 73 more runs and finally wessels who played 3 more innings and had 93 more runs.
Kapil's strike rate was 65.37 , Wessels was 40.14 , jonty was 37.47 and cronje was 28.47
Kapil bowled a grand total of 165 overs in the series , more then the much younger Prabhakar , only 10 less then Donald and more then McMillan with an economy rate of 1.81
don't see how this is an all rounder failure , he kept it extremely tight and made preassure on the batsmen , didn't take any cheap wickets and took insane workload for someone as old as him
in 79 he averaged 30.9 with the ball , even though bedi averaged 35+ and played 3 matches and literally every other indian bowler was averaging 50+ , kapil did pretty well with that context.
without context Kapil's stats don't mean much , in 82 he was the second top scorer in England and took multiple wickets too , in this series literally none except willis averaged less then 35 and Kapil was awarded with MOS
in 86 series he averaged 30.6 but had a crucial spell in the first game of 4/52 which won India the test and he won the man of the match in that test.
in 90 series , another bat dominates the ball series , Best bowler of the series in Angus Frazer averaged 28.75 with the ball , Eddie hemmings was the second best at 41 bowling average , and third best was Devon Malcolm who averaged 62 so.... yeah , but Kapil did extremely well with the bat averaging 55 though there were 9 50+ averaging Batsmen in the series with gooch having bradman+ stats , kapil's bowling figures in england are really just effected by this otherwise they are perfectly fine with some match deciding spells as well.
in 78 series where he is pretty much a debutant , a grand total of 80 wickets fell for 3892 runs , a 48 wicket gap between each , which is bonkers, combining with him being a literal debutant , the series is just a horrible thrashing for India and Dev , chandrasekhar averaged 48 and Bedi 74 , Imran was at 31 , funnily Chandra was the fourth best bowler and his average is 48 , third best is at 39.
in 82 series , there were 6 matches and
collective 133 wickets fell for 5775 runs , a 43.4 runs gap each , still high as hell but Kapil did well here , he bowled 40 over in one match and took 7/220 carrying the entire bowling lineup , and a 8/85 where he bamboozled Pakistan , He was the second best bowler after imran here , no one here except immy averaged below 32 btw so another display of these wickets.
84 series is just...bad? 2 matches played , both draws because of how ridiculous the wickets were , 2000+ runs in two games and only 41 wickets fell , 52 runs between each wicket and Kapil for some reason only bowled 35 overs
89 series is also pretty bat dominate Ball as a series but in same vein as 82 series , Kapil was the four highest wicket taker here next , here Wasim bowled 204.4 overs , took 18 wickets at 30.61 , Manoj Prabhakar bowled 181.2 overs and took 16 wickets at 33.88 , Imran bowled 185.3 overs and took 13 wickets at 38.77 and Kapil bowled 168.4 overs , took 12 wickets at 31.50 , Abdul Qadir bowled 109 overs , took 6 wickets at 57.6.
Kapil and wasim were top 2 in average ( 31.5 and 30.6 lol ) followed by Prabhakar and Imran ( 33.88 and 38.77 lol ) , waqar was there but bowled too less ( averaged 38.5 if wondering).
all in all , perfectly explain Lillee's stats there , PCB probably pulled the same bull**** with Lillee , literally no stand out bowler only performance except 82 Imran
Kapil didn't fail in south africa , the first time he went was in 92 where he bowled 22 overs first game , 6 of them maidens , 3/43 , takes out the two openers and then pringle who was playing a kapil esque knock of 33* ( 27 ) and the economy rate was 1.95 , comes back the second inning and bowls 19 overs , 11 of them maiden and enconomy of 1 , overall bowling 41 overs , 17 maidens , 3 wickets
Kapil then bowls 25 overs in the next game , 4 maidens , takes out hansie cronje who played 63 balls and took the knock from 26-4 to 73-4 ( before Kapil took him out ) , Kapil again comes back and bowls 24 overs next inning , keeping it tight gives around 50 runs at economy of approx 2
third test Kapil bowls 24 overs the first inning , 6 maidens , economy of 1.88 with figures of 2/45
then when batting comes kapil comes out to bat at 27-5 against a raging donald ( who took 7/84 that inning ) , scores 129 out of 180 , saving india from an inning defeat and out scoring the rest of indian batting by country mile , one of the best knocks of all time
kapil only bowls 5 overs in last inning , still keeps it tight and gets a maiden , 1.8 economy
in the final test first inning Kapil dev bowls 29 overs , keeps it extremely right at an ER of 1.45 , bowls 8 maidens , takes 1/42
next inning he again bowls 17 overs , takes 1/29 , bowls 4 maidens and has an economy rate of 1.4
Kapil ends with 40.4 average with 200+ runs , 4th best average of the series and best from an indian Batsmen
The people ahead of him are Cronje , who played one more inning and only has 4 more runs , Jonty rhodes who played 2 more innings and had 73 more runs and finally wessels who played 3 more innings and had 93 more runs.
Kapil's strike rate was 65.37 , Wessels was 40.14 , jonty was 37.47 and cronje was 28.47
Kapil bowled a grand total of 165 overs in the series , more then the much younger Prabhakar , only 10 less then Donald and more then McMillan with an economy rate of 1.81
don't see how this is an all rounder failure , he kept it extremely tight and made preassure on the batsmen , didn't take any cheap wickets and took insane workload for someone as old as him
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h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
Kapil's overall stats in England tell a criminally bare story, if not as a bowler, certainly as an allrounder.
When he came in there in 1979, he was 20, very young, and was looked at in amusement by the cricket loving people of England, as the only Indian cricketer capable of bowling above medium pace since Amar Singh and Nissar in 1930s. He did well on the tour, though not extra-ordinary (19 wickets @ 30).
He was at his peak with the bat in 1982, scoring 292 runs @ 73, with a SR of 115 or so !. Also took an 8 wicket haul at Lords. Quite simply his best series in UK, with a MOS too. Botham was outstanding with the bat as well.
He returned in 1986 as captain leading India to a 2-0 series victory, with a man of the match in 1st test, finishing off the match in characteristic fashion, with boundaries and a six.
In 1990, he was once again very good with the bat (220 runs @ 55) but was poor with the ball. 4 sixes to avoid the follow on in the first test and a hundred in last test being the highlights.
I agree that there would have been some ordinary performances in between his best ones in England, but the overall record doesn't tell you the impact he had, as an entertaining batsman, bowling workhorse and a series winning captain.
When he came in there in 1979, he was 20, very young, and was looked at in amusement by the cricket loving people of England, as the only Indian cricketer capable of bowling above medium pace since Amar Singh and Nissar in 1930s. He did well on the tour, though not extra-ordinary (19 wickets @ 30).
He was at his peak with the bat in 1982, scoring 292 runs @ 73, with a SR of 115 or so !. Also took an 8 wicket haul at Lords. Quite simply his best series in UK, with a MOS too. Botham was outstanding with the bat as well.
He returned in 1986 as captain leading India to a 2-0 series victory, with a man of the match in 1st test, finishing off the match in characteristic fashion, with boundaries and a six.
In 1990, he was once again very good with the bat (220 runs @ 55) but was poor with the ball. 4 sixes to avoid the follow on in the first test and a hundred in last test being the highlights.
I agree that there would have been some ordinary performances in between his best ones in England, but the overall record doesn't tell you the impact he had, as an entertaining batsman, bowling workhorse and a series winning captain.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
(Hadlee, Cowie, Bond, Wagner, Southee, Boult, B Taylor, Jamieson) (Collinge, Nash, Motz, Cairns, possibly Doull)
That's fine, but all of these bowlers except Bond (who never played England) and Doull (who only played 1 test for 1 wicket in England) have better averages in England than Kapil.
That's fine, but all of these bowlers except Bond (who never played England) and Doull (who only played 1 test for 1 wicket in England) have better averages in England than Kapil.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Why is that a/the criteria though?
Red_Ink_Squid
Global Moderator
Because most of the NZ bowlers in question fare better on that criteria, thus making it one of the most important criteria.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
Because it’s the only way a bunch of random NZ plonkers can be argued to be better than someone who took 434 wickets.
TheJediBrah
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Come on, the whole discussion before that was about Kapil in England. It's not like he pulled criteria that out of nowhere
_00_deathscar
International Regular
Yea but someone is legitimately trying to argue Simon Doull was maybe better than Kapil Dev lol
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Because the previous 2 posts were about Kapil in England.
Red_Ink_Squid
Global Moderator
I didn't read those tbf.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Sidhu 0
Jadeja 10
Dravid 0
Ganguly 5
Tendulkar 47
Mongia 0
Kumble 11
Doull 7-65
(7 of the top 8)
Dec 1998
Also bowled very weak NZ sides to test wins in SA and Pakistan in the mid 90s.
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honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Doull > Dev the same way Kambli > Crowe, tbh.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Not with respect to your ranking though.
RossTaylorsBox
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
To be fair Jadeja was like 10 at the time.