Viv Richards vs Sachin Tendulkar

[subshakerz]

Viv averages 43 in games involving Hadlee.

Not really a fair comparison though because the overall attacks with McGrath and both Ws would definitely be stronger than Hadlee's

Sachin never faced the 2Ws in their prime sadly

 

[Chrish]

Viv Richards: How did he perform against the West Indian quicks?

CC article amp

www.cricketcountry.com

 

[Johan]

“He destroyed a lot of bowlers in the Caribbean. He didn’t have to play against four West Indies bowlers at once but he played against us [domestically] and he got runs against each team,” said Holding.

https://amp.scroll.in/field/959443/why-michael-holding-believes-viv-richards-is-the-best-batsman-he-has-ever-seen

 

[Chrish]

If you wanna analyze stats of one player, it’s only fair you do the same for the other.

Viv being “much better against pace” isn’t something that is supported by cold numbers (only objective criteria).

 

[Johan]

I said Viv is better against pace , not that a significant margin exists , and I backed my reasoning with his international stats against great pacers he faced , and it is better then sachin's international stats against the international pacers of his time bar ambrose.

 

[Chrish]

Well Viv’s record against his own bowlers can’t be ignored since everyone talks about how others failed against WI quartet.

Based on stats, argument can easily be made that he was “lucky he didn’t face his own bowlers.”

 

[Starfighter]

I'm of the opinion Richards was the batting Wasim. Undeniably a legendary player and absolutely spectacular, but not quite as effective as other less flashy players. I'd have no hesitation taking Tendulkar over him.

 

[trundler]

It's not really fair though, is it? Tendulkar faced better quality attacks that were also backed up by better spinners. Viv didn't have to face the reason why batting was harder in his era. NZ had Hadlee + jobbers. Australia had a bunch of guys who were good but no one who really stood out. Pakistan had Imran + a raw Wasim. Compare this to Donald, Pollock and Fanie or some other generally decent third seamer for SA or Australia with McWarne + Gillespie/Reiffel/Bichel. He didn't play Pakistan and WI a whole lot but those attacks were pretty good too. Plus Tendulkar got centuries at a much better rate.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm of the opinion Richards was the batting Wasim. Undeniably a legendary player and absolutely spectacular, but not quite as effective as other less flashy players. I'd have no hesitation taking Tendulkar over him.

Based on what though? His record is very well rounded and he scored at an incredible SR.

 

[Starfighter]

Based on what though? His record is very well rounded and he scored at an incredible SR.

Are we going to have to have a discussion about averages again? And I'm not a strike rate fetishist, with ball or bat.

 

[Prince EWS]

Everyone who's ever played cricket knows facing a gun bowler is much harder if they're part of a good overall attack than if you can identify them as the only real threat. It's not even just about 'seeing them off', it's about building/releasing pressure.

Scoring runs against Holding in an otherwise domestic-level attack is totally different to scoring runs against him in the context of an entire attack full of similar quality bowlers.

Viv was definitely better than his career average suggests given how long his career was and how it tapered off past the point where most batsmen's careers are over, but he was a little bit lucky not to have to face his own bowlers in Tests for sure.

 

[Johan]

Well Viv’s record against his own bowlers can’t be ignored since everyone talks about how others failed against WI quartet.

Based on stats, argument can easily be made that he was “lucky he didn’t face his own bowlers.”

I don't question that Viv was lucky to not face something as potent as the Windies Pace Quaret , but Sachin never faced an attack on par with the Quaret either , and considering Sachin averages 39 when Shaun Pollock and him played together , 32 against wasim , 32 against Donald e.t.c. I won't assume he would fare much better against the pace quaret in international cricket then Viv did in domestic.

 

[Starfighter]

given how long his career was and how it tapered off past the point where most batsmen's careers are over

I don't buy this argument in this particular comparison, because Tendulkar went past that point too, and he started prematurely.

 

[Prince EWS]

I don't buy this argument in this particular comparison, because Tendulkar went past that point too, and he started prematurely.

Yeah I was just talking in general. Tendulkar is better than his career average in most comparisons too for the same reason.

 

[trundler]

I don't question that Viv was lucky to not face something as potent as the Windies Pace Quaret , but Sachin never faced an attack on par with the Quaret either.

Sure he did. SA 2010. McGrath, Gillespie, Warne and Lee.

West Indies very rarely played 4 guns. It must've happened fewer than a dozen times because of injuries and different guys being at different phases in their careers. Baptiste, Harper, Patterson etc played quite a few tests. You're comparing a platonic ideal to what actually happened.

 

[trundler]

I don't buy this argument in this particular comparison, because Tendulkar went past that point too, and he started prematurely.

Benaud rated Tendulkar a level better than the likes of Greg Chappell before he turned 32. Bradman picked him in his all time XI in the '90s. Then he went on to have a second peak a decade later. Madness.

 

[Johan]

Sure he did. SA 2010. McGrath, Gillespie, Warne and Lee.

West Indies very rarely played 4 guns. It must've happened fewer than a dozen times because of injuries and different guys being at different phases in their careers. Baptiste, Harper, Patterson etc played quite a few tests. You're comparing a platonic ideal to what actually happened.

alright so what are his stats in the matches where that entire Quaret played? or atleast the three pacers at once as the entire argument is on who played pace better?

and I am assuming you're talking about the south africa tour of india in 2010?

Edit - Yup , Sachin never faced that four man aussie attack , When McGrath played he averaged 36 when Mcgrath played alone

 

[ankitj]

Is it easier to swallow if I just say from 1977-1991 he had ATVG statistical output, not ATG output and certainly not potentially best after Bradman output

As I said in another thread, you could just say he averaged only 50.23 to make your point. It's obvious based on that the average that in select periods he will fall to near 45 (and also correspondingly rise to near 55 in other periods of similar lengths).

 

[anil1405]

Hadlee and Viv met in 2 series , in the 85 4 Match series where Hadlee got him twice ( once after a half century) , Viv averaged 61 this series and was the third highest run scorer ( played 6 innings only , the top 2 played 8 ) , Hadlee with the bowl averaged 27.

next series in 87 , he averaged 19 but only played 4 innings and got out twice to chatfield , once to snedden and only once to Hadlee.

for other pacers , Viv averages 46+ in matches with Imran , 48+ at 75 SR in matches with Lillee , 50+ at 75 SR against a young wasim , around 88 against willis and 59+ With Botham and till 81 he was averaging 70+ against Botham ( 9 matches , 4 in 80 and 5 in 81 iirc ) , Botham till 81 was averaging 21.75 with 49 SR with the ball , Viv averaged 44.8 against 70s Thompson ( peak thommo ) with 2 hundreds.

If half cooked numbers is what you want to look at then here is the other angle to it.

If he averages 46+ in matches involving Imran and 50+ with a young Wasim Akram, his overall average against Pak is just short of 42. Performed below par against not so good Pakistan bowlers then?

If he averages 48+ against Lillee then his overall average against Aus is 44.

Overall average against NZ is 43.

He has been monstrous against Eng but let's not pretend Willis and Botham were same level as other pacers of their generation.

Basically Viv only averaged 50 or more against India and England while he didn't even touch 45 against other nations.

 

[trundler]

alright so what are his stats in the matches where that entire Quaret played? or atleast the three pacers at once as the entire argument is on who played pace better?

and I am assuming you're talking about the south africa tour of india in 2010?

Sorry I meant 2011 when he faced peak Steyn and Morkel at home. Cbf digging stats but it is just not true to say Tendulkar never faced an attack as good as West Indies in the '80s.

If half cooked numbers is what you want to look at then here is the other angle to it.

If he averages 46+ in matches involving Imran and 50+ with a young Wasim Akram, his overall average against Pak is just short of 42. Performed below par against not so good Pakistan bowlers then?

If he averages 48+ against Lillee then his overall average against Aus is 44.

Overall average against NZ is 43.

He has been monstrous against Eng but let's not pretend Willis and Botham were same level as other pacers of their generation.

Basically Viv only averaged 50 or more against India and England while he didn't even touch 45 against other nations.

Viv was too cool to score against lesser bowlers. His swagger only shone against the best.

/s