*Official* New Zealand in Australia 2022

[SteveNZ]

That's what I'd like to ask you - why did we (if we did) get better from 2018-2021, and what's fundamentally changed since mid 2021 to now? If we're saying we got better as a side - and honestly, I feel like I could mount a debate that we didn't, save for the obvious evidence of the trophy cabinet - does that mean Gary Stead is a good coach? Or does it mean Kane is the guy who deserves the most praise? Genuinely interested in your opinions.

 

[straw man]

I don't think this is how it actually panned out though? Was 2016 - 2018 more successful than 2018 - 2021? I'd argue the Williamson/Hesson partnership had mixed results and the Williamson/Stead pairing had better results.

All of the winning and making tournament finals occurred with the current pairing which was miles removed in time and approach from McHess

Can you remind of this stuttering under Williamson/Hesson in 2016-18? My memory for dates that things happened is admittedly not the best.

 

[SteveNZ]

Can you remind of this stuttering under Williamson/Hesson in 2016-18? My memory for dates that things happened is admittedly not the best.

We lost home and away Test series' in Australia, one at home to SA, and away to SA & India; in ODIs, a 3-0 sweep in Australia (which was actually captained by Kane), lost away to India and England, lost to SA at home etc.

However....from 2018-21 we had the Australia 2019 disaster, lost ODI series' to India (4-1) and England at home as well. It's a fair point, though, on balance that 2018-21 was much better than 2016-18, even if I'd argue our Test run was a lot easier during that time, and our 2015 WC team was potentially better than our 2019 one.

 

[thierry henry]

Can you remind of this stuttering under Williamson/Hesson in 2016-18? My memory for dates that things happened is admittedly not the best.

tbh I actually don't really agree with pointing to individual results as symptomatic of an underlying downturn or upturn....but I guess that's sort of the nature of the conversation

Under Williamson/Hesson we lost a home test series to South Africa which was the only home test series we lost during the 2016-2021 period. We bombed out of the 2017 Champions Trophy (so, obviously a worse outcome than we achieved in the CWC either side). I'd say coming into the 2017/18 season we were at a bit of a low ebb, but we beat England which ended Hesson's tenure on a good note.

Overall the 2 years of Williamson/Hesson were a bit of a mixed/uncertain period.

Under Stead/Williamson we had the series win vs Pakistan in the UAE, the 2019 World Cup, beating India at home, beating England home and away, the entire WTC campaign, the 2021 T20 final etc

Now obviously 2018-2021 wasn't perfect and a lot of this just comes down to the opposition we were playing. Nevertheless I think it's fair to say that we had patchy results during that Williamson/Hesson period whereas the Williamson/Stead period contained historic success

 

[thierry henry]

We lost home and away Test series' in Australia, one at home to SA, and away to SA & India; in ODIs, a 3-0 sweep in Australia (which was actually captained by Kane), lost away to India and England, lost to SA at home etc. It's a fair point.

The home and away series v Aus and I think the series you are referring to in England and SA were actually McHess. I would also argue that the last year of McHess was itself a bit of a downturn, which wasn't arrested until we got Stead/Williamson, but that's a slightly different argument.

Basically from about the 2015 World Cup final to the 2018 England test series we didn't have great results and I'd say "BazBall 1.0" pretty much jumped the shark circa-2015.

 

[straw man]

Fair points.

So are you saying we can't use Stead as our scapegoat? Disappointing. Will start pulling pins out of the voodoo doll.

 

[SteveNZ]

The home and away series v Aus and I think the series you are referring to in England and Australia were actually McHess. I would also argue that the last year of McHess was itself a bit of a downturn, which wasn't arrested until we got Stead/Williamson, but that's a slightly different argument.

Yeah no I know the home and away was McHess, I guess I was more leaning on the 2012-18 Hesson and/or Baz influence v after they'd both left.

Again, I'm genuinely interested as to why you think we were so good from 2018-21 and how much that is favourable to coach, captain, circumstance or anything else

 

[Prince EWS]

Sometimes cricket is just like that. It's high variance, and circumstances can be compounded by the effect they have on morale/confidence/fatigue etc, especially when you're talking about the differences between elite players at Test level. There doesn't always have to be a single underlying reason that can be pinpointed or fixed.

 

[Flem274*]

tbf to the KW/Hess combo, SA got off the hook massively in the drawn(?) series referred to with the rain. Now we've done that to other teams in the past, such is life.

If you're talking about our 2 test tour there, my enduring memory of that series is the Wagner slogging with Kane set for a ton and Taylor getting a ball from Steyn that literally rolled. Our bowlers really dropped the ball in that series, a common theme for them in SENA at times. Unintuitively the quicks tour Asia really well and bomb in SA and Aus.

 

[thierry henry]

Yeah no I know the home and away was McHess, I guess I was more leaning on the 2012-18 Hesson and/or Baz influence v after they'd both left.

Again, I'm genuinely interested as to why you think we were so good from 2018-21 and how much that is favourable to coach, captain, circumstance or anything else

Honestly, as PEWS sort of just said, I actually don’t buy into the premise of the conversation at all and don’t really believe there were major fundamental differences between these various eras

Seems to me we had a pretty good team from about 2013-2021, and if you go through the individual results over that whole period they were actually pretty consistently predictable

We still lost to Australia and South Africa, we still lost in India, and we beat everyone else at home.

The standout results over that whole period are probably beating Pakistan in the UAE and maybe beating England last year (not because they were good but because they still usually beat us over there). Everything else pretty much fits with expected patterns.

 

[thierry henry]

Like I fully agree that KW/Stead has not been working for the last year. It happens, coaches and captains run out of new ideas, rest on their laurels, get left behind. I just disagree that this retroactively means all of their 2018-2021 successes are because of McHess or because we have been heading downhill the further removed we became from McHess. KW/Stead had their own prolonged success. I think they succeeded on their own terms and now they’re failing on their own terms and it’s time for a change.

 

[vandem]

... Again, I'm genuinely interested as to why you think we were so good from 2018-21 and how much that is favourable to coach, captain, circumstance or anything else

The "anything else" for 2018-21 test cricket was player career trajectory and a little luck.

Taylor's runs didn't fall away until 2022. Wagner was still a world class old-ball quick in 2021. New cap Jamieson had 2 stellar seasons. Then Conway's debut was more successful than we expected.

We had a little more luck in 2018-21 than in previous seasons. 2018 against England at Auckland the rain stopped with just enough time for us to win on 5th evening, then in Chch the dead 5th day pitch and tired bowlers helped Sodhi and Wags bat out a draw. Could have easily been a 0-1 series loss, not a 1-0 series win. Contrast to 2017 Sth Africa, series lost 0-1 but if rain had stayed away would very likely been 1-1.

And if Aussie hadn't lost WTC points due to over rate, or if Pakistan had batted for another 5 overs at the Mount, NZ wouldn't have been in the WTC final, instead would have been 3rd or 4th in table (if my maths is correct), and we would look back on 2018-21 as a continuation of the McHesson era.

 

[Chewie]

Yeah this is my number one memory from those early Chappell-Hadlee ODIs. Why even talk about the quality of the 1st/2nd choice Australian bowling attack when they had no chance vs the might of the edge of Mark Gillespie's bat.

I think that series and Mark Gillespie's batting was one of the reasons I got into following cricket

 

[Bahnz]

tbf to the KW/Hess combo, SA got off the hook massively in the drawn(?) series referred to with the rain. Now we've done that to other teams in the past, such is life.

Was 1-0 to SA actually, and yeah I don't think I've ever felt less bad about NZ losing a series. They played the better cricket in both the 1st and 3rd tests. The first test I think they actually benefitted from the rain. Taylor and Boult had both broken down injured early in the match, so NZ were entering that last day needing to wrap up the tail before chasing a 200+ target with only 9 fit players. Could've easily gone ****-up. But the third test NZ dominated from start to rain induced finish and probably would've ended with an innings victory had the weather allowed it.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Was 1-0 to SA actually, and yeah I don't think I've ever felt less bad about NZ losing a series. They played the better cricket in both the 1st and 3rd tests. The first test I think they actually benefitted from the rain. Taylor and Boult had both broken down injured early in the match, so NZ were entering that last day needing to wrap up the tail before chasing a 200+ target with only 9 fit players. Could've easily gone ****-up. But the third test NZ dominated from start to rain induced finish and probably would've ended with an innings victory had the weather allowed it.

Kane also scored 100s in both the 1st and 3rd tests of that series.

 

[Zinzan]

Nah they can keep him

I'd take him back in a heartbeat to coach NZ

 

[Zinzan]

The reason Kane's captaincy isn't going so well lately is because he is no longer one of the best batsman in the world. He might not even be top 20 right now. Genuinely just isn't anywhere near where he was.

All true, but that's only one of the reasons, his captaincy has always erred on the conservative regardless of his batting form.

 

[Zinzan]

Of course the other argument in relieving KW from captaining ODIs, (and being dropped from the T20 side altogether) is that he's been missing every 2nd or 3rd game due to his elbow/other reasons for the last 18-24 months now.