Donald Bradman's average

[ashley bach]

I love this post. Someone achieves something which is literally impossible.

Then, fowl play. Pok-pok-pok-POKUUURRRRKKK!

Yeah sadly though nothing is being removed from the history books, besides there's thousands of Italians who think he's not guilty.

 

[ashley bach]

speaking of fowl play I'm gonna knock off early and smash a Zinger family meal I think

I literally died of hunger today

What's the fowl play, knocking off early or eating KFC?

 

[Bolo.]

How ahead of Sobers is Bradman as a player, not a bat? 25% better maybe?

 

[mr_mister]

How ahead of Sobers is Bradman as a player, not a bat? 25% better maybe?

Sobers was serviceable/handy with the ball. Wasn't often winning games with it though

I get where you're coming from but if you had first pick in some kind of... Mysterious fantasy Cricket draft concept are you going Sobers or Bradman?

 

[Migara]

Really ? OK let's see. India had zilch in the 80s, as did Australia. In the 90s, Australia had Warne and later MacGill and now Lyons. India had Kumble, Jadeja and Ashwin. Maybe a case can be made for Harbajan. But whereas, Australia's spinners were usually serviceable home and away (Warne was great), India's were and still are only really useful in Asia. Over the course of history, Australia's ability imo, matches India's in terms of quantity and quality.

India: Bedi, Gupte, Chandrasekhar, Prassana, Kumble, Harbhajan, Jadeja, Ashwin

Australia: O'Reilly, Grimmett, Benaud, Mallet, Warne, MacGill, Lyons, Yardley,

1. Time duration - not equal 60 yrs vs 100 years
2. Australia has only 3 - 4 greats in that list. All Indian spinners listed are dead set greats, may be other than for Harbhajan
3. Support cast was useless for Australia. India has Venkathapathy Raju (WI 93/94), Narendra Hirwani (WI), Jasu Patel (Aus) etc, who actually sent best teams of the era packing, with consistent performances.

So, no. Australia's top notch spinners are lesser and far apart in their history than India. And supporting cast for Australia was awful or non existent.

 

[Migara]

This isn't up for debate. Australia has produced more top class bats throughout its history than any other test playing nation. And certainly India.

And given the Autralian test history is twice long as India . . .

last 50 years would be interesting.

 

[CricAddict]

>inb4 @CricAddict

Ha ha. After that discussion and some thoughts, I have realized that chess has to be considered a mental sport only.

 

[Chrish]

Never would have guessed that link without you. Thanks.

???

 

[Bolo.]

Sobers was serviceable/handy with the ball. Wasn't often winning games with it though

I get where you're coming from but if you had first pick in some kind of... Mysterious fantasy Cricket draft concept are you going Sobers or Bradman?

Na, the gap between them is obviously still big. I'm just trying to quantify how big to compare to other sports. I've seen some of these statistical comparisons do it by comparing him to the next best bat, but as a complete player should make more sense.

If Sobers averaged low 70s as a bat and mid 20s as a bowler (25% improvement in averages), I'd likely rate them about equal.

 

[Uppercut]

Usain Bolt is the guy who would make be think that Bradman level dominance is still possible in modern sports, albeit extremely unlikely. Occasionally you do just get a massive outlier.

 

[Slifer]

And given the Autralian test history is twice long as India . . .

last 50 years would be interesting.

Seriously it's not debatable when it comes to batting. What about that don't you get.

India since 1970:

Gavaskar
Armanath
Vishy
Sidhu
Kambli (that's a stretch)
Sachin
Azhar
Dravid
Laxman
Ganguly
Kohli
Pujara
Sehwag
??????


Australia

Chappell G
Chappell I
Border
Walters
Jones
Waugh S
Waugh
Boon
Katich
Langer
Martyn
Hayden
Taylor
Slater
Warner
Smith
Khawaja
Gilchrist
Hussey
Clarke
Ponting
Etc etc

It's not close. Stop the bs.

 

[Slifer]

1. Time duration - not equal 60 yrs vs 100 years
2. Australia has only 3 - 4 greats in that list. All Indian spinners listed are dead set greats, may be other than for Harbhajan
3. Support cast was useless for Australia. India has Venkathapathy Raju (WI 93/94), Narendra Hirwani (WI), Jasu Patel (Aus) etc, who actually sent best teams of the era packing, with consistent performances.

So, no. Australia's top notch spinners are lesser and far apart in their history than India. And supporting cast for Australia was awful or non existent.

1 .The spinners I listed for Australia literally played around the time India existed as a test nation. And if you're going to use no names like Hirwani and Patel then might as well through in Bob Holland and Allan Border. Hirwani spun WI out in ONE and then followed up AT HOME vs NZ . Once he left India he was pathetic. Why you use him is anyone's guess.

2. Lol Australia have 3 legitimate ATG spinners Warne, Grimmett and O'Reilly. And Warne and Bill are greater than anyone India has ever produced. India has produced a few greats but no one in the ATG category. I will concede that India in terms of volume probably produced more middling spinners than Oz: Prassana and the like. But it's not by leaps and bounds.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Voges being the second greatest batsman after the Don is giving be bad vibes.

 

[mr_mister]

Na, the gap between them is obviously still big. I'm just trying to quantify how big to compare to other sports. I've seen some of these statistical comparisons do it by comparing him to the next best bat, but as a complete player should make more sense.

If Sobers averaged low 70s as a bat and mid 20s as a bowler (25% improvement in averages), I'd likely rate them about equal.

Ah my bad. Thought you were saying Sobers including batting and bowling is 25% better than Bradman. Think I mixed you up with a similar named user, Borges or something who liked to troll a bit

 

[Xuhaib]

Fed/Nadal/Djoker trio is so much more remarkable the more I think. In cricketing terms it's like after 150 years of test cricket with most great batsman averaging 45-55 suddenly come 3 blokes in a similar time period and end up averaging 70-80 over a 15-20 yr career I think there is more chance of another Bradman type freak coming along then this happening.

 

[mr_mister]

There's been plenty of tennis gods. Sampras was brilliant in the 90s

 

[Migara]

1 .The spinners I listed for Australia literally played around the time India existed as a test nation. And if you're going to use no names like Hirwani and Patel then might as well through in Bob Holland and Allan Border. Hirwani spun WI out in ONE and then followed up AT HOME vs NZ . Once he left India he was pathetic. Why you use him is anyone's guess.

Exactly why the argument is pathetic. Austalia has played four decades of test cricket by 1932. Under similar conditions, India should start somewhere in 70s. Then it is not even close.

2. Lol Australia have 3 legitimate ATG spinners Warne, Grimmett and O'Reilly. And Warne and Bill are greater than anyone India has ever produced. India has produced a few greats but no one in the ATG category. I will concede that India in terms of volume probably produced more middling spinners than Oz: Prassana and the like. But it's not by leaps and bounds.

Lol. Greg mathews vs Prasanna. Lol.

 

[Slifer]

Fed/Nadal/Djoker trio is so much more remarkable the more I think. In cricketing terms it's like after 150 years of test cricket with most great batsman averaging 45-55 suddenly come 3 blokes in a similar time period and end up averaging 70-80 over a 15-20 yr career I think there is more chance of another Bradman type freak coming along then this happening.

No just no. Nobody is coming along who is 50% greater than anyone else ever. And Federer was past it a bit when Novak peaked imo. So their careers didn't perfectly overlap. In the 80s there was Evert and Martina and right on their heels Steffi. They had 18, 18 and 22 majors between them (for comparison).

 

[Slifer]

Exactly why the argument is pathetic. Austalia has played four decades of test cricket by 1932. Under similar conditions, India should start somewhere in 70s. Then it is not even close.

Lol. Greg mathews vs Prasanna. Lol.

Who the hell mentioned Greg Matthews? Kumble/Ashwin vs Warne/Bill....lol lol. If we're going to play silly game.

Can't say I'm surprised by your shifting of goal posts. Now you're going to limit it to post 70s. Why then didn't you just say that from the get go. I'm glad you didn't even attempt to refute the claim you made with the batting.

 

[Bolo.]

Ah my bad. Thought you were saying Sobers including batting and bowling is 25% better than Bradman. Think I mixed you up with a similar named user, Borges or something who liked to troll a bit

Na, even saying Bradman is only 25% ahead seems very wrong to me. Like saying a bat who averages 60 is only 50% better than one averaging 40... statistically true in one sense, but fails to recognise the level by which they are an outlier... diminishing returns that would stick them in an incredibly different percentile for quality.