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Kallis Vs Sobers
- Thread starter Precambrian
- Start date
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
Even I dont go that far in my love of the man.Wait man, he might argue Symonds is the best allrounder ever.
Johan
International Debutant
Definitly worth A bump , but I feel like the stats used earlier weren't realistic , kallis is a right arm pace bowler so we should use the stats for pace bowlers rather then overall bowler stats , and if we remove the Minnow ( BD and Zimbabwe ) from both equates , the average fast bowler stats come at average of 33 and SR of 63 meanwhile Kallis ( removing his Bowling bradman esque stats against zim/ban of 50 wickets at 14 a piece and 33 strike rate ) , comes out at 35 average and 75 strike rate , the same gap from era strike rate as overall Sobers.
in sobers case , we need to remember Gary's bowling strike rate is exactly what the spin average strike rate of 1960s was , 91. either way Kallis doesn't have any claims of much better strike rate then Sobers , especially when you consider the era.
the Idea India and Pakistan are minnows is ridiculous
2000s west indies played 96 matches , took 1265 wickets at 40.85 each with SR or 78.
2010s England played 121 tests , took 1816 wickets at 34.88 Each with SR of 65.7.
2000s sri Lanka played 79 matches , took 1189 wickets at 33.36 with SR of 68.0.
2000s newzealand played 67 matches , took 934 wickets , at average of 37.2 and SR of 70.8.
2000s Pakistan played 75 tests , took 1089 wickets , at 36.85 each with a SR of 69.
Bangladesh of 2000s played 53 matches , took 451 wickets , at an average of 53 with a strike rate of 90.7.
2000s South Africa played 96 matches , took 1534 wickets , at an average of 32.56 with a atrike rate of 63.2.
1960s india played a grand total of 47 matches , took 652 wickets , at an average of 33.91 with a strike rate of 87.1.
1960s pakistan played 30 matches , took 358 wickets at an average of 35.72 and SR of 89.2.
Australia in 1960s played 67 matches , took 1068 wickets , at average of 32.6 with a SR of 81.8.
England in 1960s played 87 matches , took 1332 wickets , at average of 30.65 with SR of 78.6.
west indies of 1960s played 49 matches , took 799 wickets at average of 31.81 and strike rate of 79.2.
new Zealand of 1960s played 35 matches , took 465 wickets , at 32.43 average and 75.8 strike rate.
Average sr of 1960s - 80.2 ( India was spin attack so 91 )
Average sr of 2000s - 68
there is no way you can argue 60s india is minnows , real minnows like 2000s ban have far worse stats , 60's India was statistically a better unit then 2000s NZ , Eng , Pak , windies and almost even with SL , same for Pak , neither of them are minnows as overall bowling units and the stats clearly prove it.
now that the stats are done with , I don't think this is even close tbf , sobers had a much better batting prime ( averaging 70+ for 10 years , better then even ponting ) , a much better bowling prime ( averaging 27 for 7 years ) , was seen as the undisputed best batsmen of post Hutton era meanwhile Kallis , to my memory , was never in top 3 Batsmen of his time ( inferior to Lara/Sachin/Punter , on par with Sangakkara and Dravid ) , had much more bowling styles , was actually a great captain ( chosen to lead World XI in 1971 ) , was the best Fielder in the world while Kallis wasn't that in his own XI , Sobers had more gears to his batting allowing him to hit 6 sixes in an over something Kallis just never had , had much more variety in his bowling , has much better peer reputation e.t.c.
Sobers imo is clearly the Superior all rounder and if you remove his years when he was a spin bowler and a Teenager ( Sobers debuted at 17 ) , by the time he became a proper batsmen ( 1958 ) , he averaged 71 from 1958 to 68 with 5k+ runs , from 58 to 73 he was averaging 65 with 7k+ runs ( 15 years ) and from 58 to retirement he was at 63 as a batsmen ( 16 years )
people underrate him as a bowler , his peers have Great regard for Sobers the bowler as well
Geoff Boycott, p 41:
'Blessed with so much natural talent, gifted beyond imagination, a natural genius, he allied all that to concentration, determination, and great stamina, which allowed him to play long innings and make big scores. If you're picking any side he's got to be number one, because he can win you games with either his batting or bowling.'
Sir Donald Bradman, p 42:
'Garry would be in my team for his batting alone....Garry was by far the best player of short pitched fast bowlers I ever saw. He was absolutely murderous, miraculous.... If you consider that he bowled left-hand fast-medium and spin with equal facility and great effect, he would also make any team as a bowler.'
Greg Chappell, p 47:
'He was the greatest all-round cricketer that I have ever seen, and am ever likely to see. He could have played in any team as a fast bowler or as a batsman alone. Garry would walk into any side and be the outstanding player. He is the best batsman I have ever seen.'
Sir Richard Hadlee, p 81:
'Sir Garfield would have to be the best all-rounder in the history of the game....He was a natural timer of the ball with all the shots: cuts, pulls, hooks and had the ability to be dynamic and explosive with sheer brilliance. He was a lively new ball swing bowler and if conditions suited, he could bowl left-arm orthodox spin. Add his athletic fielding and superb close-in catching, is there anyone better?'
Hanif Mohammed, p 83:
'The best player I ever played with or against. He was a four-in-one package of excellence. As a batsman he was sheer grace, as a new ball bowler he was very hostile in his first few overs, also a useful left-arm orthodox leg break, chinaman and googly bowler, and an excellent close-in fielder. There hasn't been another cricketer of comparable greatness to Garry Sobers.'
so Yeah , Sobers wins Fairly Easily in my opinion ( though not a complete blowout ) , At the end of the day Cricket is a game of " How many " and " how " , and Sobers have kallis beat in the first and Sobers have Kallis far surpassed in the second.
in sobers case , we need to remember Gary's bowling strike rate is exactly what the spin average strike rate of 1960s was , 91. either way Kallis doesn't have any claims of much better strike rate then Sobers , especially when you consider the era.
the Idea India and Pakistan are minnows is ridiculous
2000s west indies played 96 matches , took 1265 wickets at 40.85 each with SR or 78.
2010s England played 121 tests , took 1816 wickets at 34.88 Each with SR of 65.7.
2000s sri Lanka played 79 matches , took 1189 wickets at 33.36 with SR of 68.0.
2000s newzealand played 67 matches , took 934 wickets , at average of 37.2 and SR of 70.8.
2000s Pakistan played 75 tests , took 1089 wickets , at 36.85 each with a SR of 69.
Bangladesh of 2000s played 53 matches , took 451 wickets , at an average of 53 with a strike rate of 90.7.
2000s South Africa played 96 matches , took 1534 wickets , at an average of 32.56 with a atrike rate of 63.2.
1960s india played a grand total of 47 matches , took 652 wickets , at an average of 33.91 with a strike rate of 87.1.
1960s pakistan played 30 matches , took 358 wickets at an average of 35.72 and SR of 89.2.
Australia in 1960s played 67 matches , took 1068 wickets , at average of 32.6 with a SR of 81.8.
England in 1960s played 87 matches , took 1332 wickets , at average of 30.65 with SR of 78.6.
west indies of 1960s played 49 matches , took 799 wickets at average of 31.81 and strike rate of 79.2.
new Zealand of 1960s played 35 matches , took 465 wickets , at 32.43 average and 75.8 strike rate.
Average sr of 1960s - 80.2 ( India was spin attack so 91 )
Average sr of 2000s - 68
there is no way you can argue 60s india is minnows , real minnows like 2000s ban have far worse stats , 60's India was statistically a better unit then 2000s NZ , Eng , Pak , windies and almost even with SL , same for Pak , neither of them are minnows as overall bowling units and the stats clearly prove it.
now that the stats are done with , I don't think this is even close tbf , sobers had a much better batting prime ( averaging 70+ for 10 years , better then even ponting ) , a much better bowling prime ( averaging 27 for 7 years ) , was seen as the undisputed best batsmen of post Hutton era meanwhile Kallis , to my memory , was never in top 3 Batsmen of his time ( inferior to Lara/Sachin/Punter , on par with Sangakkara and Dravid ) , had much more bowling styles , was actually a great captain ( chosen to lead World XI in 1971 ) , was the best Fielder in the world while Kallis wasn't that in his own XI , Sobers had more gears to his batting allowing him to hit 6 sixes in an over something Kallis just never had , had much more variety in his bowling , has much better peer reputation e.t.c.
Sobers imo is clearly the Superior all rounder and if you remove his years when he was a spin bowler and a Teenager ( Sobers debuted at 17 ) , by the time he became a proper batsmen ( 1958 ) , he averaged 71 from 1958 to 68 with 5k+ runs , from 58 to 73 he was averaging 65 with 7k+ runs ( 15 years ) and from 58 to retirement he was at 63 as a batsmen ( 16 years )
people underrate him as a bowler , his peers have Great regard for Sobers the bowler as well
Geoff Boycott, p 41:
'Blessed with so much natural talent, gifted beyond imagination, a natural genius, he allied all that to concentration, determination, and great stamina, which allowed him to play long innings and make big scores. If you're picking any side he's got to be number one, because he can win you games with either his batting or bowling.'
Sir Donald Bradman, p 42:
'Garry would be in my team for his batting alone....Garry was by far the best player of short pitched fast bowlers I ever saw. He was absolutely murderous, miraculous.... If you consider that he bowled left-hand fast-medium and spin with equal facility and great effect, he would also make any team as a bowler.'
Greg Chappell, p 47:
'He was the greatest all-round cricketer that I have ever seen, and am ever likely to see. He could have played in any team as a fast bowler or as a batsman alone. Garry would walk into any side and be the outstanding player. He is the best batsman I have ever seen.'
Sir Richard Hadlee, p 81:
'Sir Garfield would have to be the best all-rounder in the history of the game....He was a natural timer of the ball with all the shots: cuts, pulls, hooks and had the ability to be dynamic and explosive with sheer brilliance. He was a lively new ball swing bowler and if conditions suited, he could bowl left-arm orthodox spin. Add his athletic fielding and superb close-in catching, is there anyone better?'
Hanif Mohammed, p 83:
'The best player I ever played with or against. He was a four-in-one package of excellence. As a batsman he was sheer grace, as a new ball bowler he was very hostile in his first few overs, also a useful left-arm orthodox leg break, chinaman and googly bowler, and an excellent close-in fielder. There hasn't been another cricketer of comparable greatness to Garry Sobers.'
so Yeah , Sobers wins Fairly Easily in my opinion ( though not a complete blowout ) , At the end of the day Cricket is a game of " How many " and " how " , and Sobers have kallis beat in the first and Sobers have Kallis far surpassed in the second.
Coronis
International Coach
Even if all other things were equal (which they aren’t) when it comes to their bowling, Sobers was far more impactful. Sobers with 6 5’fers to Kallis’ 5, Sobers in 93 matches, Kallis in 166. Despite the SR difference, Sobers also took on a much larger bowling workload due to not having the benefit of bowling behind such bowlers as Donald, Pollock and Steyn his entire career.
OverratedSanity
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Sobers bowled more overs a game than most frontline pacers like Marshall, Wasim, Donald etc. Insanely massive workload for your secondary skill.
akilana
International 12th Man
It's not always a benefit bowling behind other great bowlers because you don't always get to bowl with the new ball and you don't get a bowl on bowling friendly pitches very often as the main bowlers would have destroyed the opposition.
Sobers played 2 years longer than Kallis and bowled only 200 overs more. On the match to match basis, Sobers had greater bowling workload but Kallis played more tests per year.
Coronis
International Coach
Doesn’t that also mean that you would be bowling to lower order batsmen more frequently and so having an easier time?
Yes obviously Kallis played far more tests, but clearly Sobers’ bowling was far more impactful and important for his team, no?
Oh and I haven’t even mentioned Sobers bowling both pace and spin, making him uniquely useful amongst top level cricketers on all types of wickets.
Pap Finn Keighl
International Debutant
For 7 years Sobers averaged 4 wickets per test ?
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
First 7 years?
Pap Finn Keighl
International Debutant
Johan
International Debutant
from 61 to 67 , 125 wickets at 27.83 , better then Mckenzie/Allen/Hall e.t.c. who were frontlines , also averaging 63+ with the bat in the same timeframe.
Slifer
International Captain
I wouldn't say Sobers is head and shoulders above Kallis, that is absurd. But I think Sobers is the most versatile cricketer ever. And people may underrate this fact all they want but the man went and played Shield cricket in Australia and accomplished a feat (twice almost thrice) that no Australian had done. 1000 + runs and 50 + wickets in a season. Brilliant!!!
trundler
Request Your Custom Title Now!
I would because he actually won his team matches
Coronis
International Coach
I’m pretty sure this is tongue in cheek but yeah, support.
TheJediBrah
Request Your Custom Title Now!
It's not. Same guy tried to claim Kallis was a great ODI cricketer because of Man of the Match awards