shortpitched713
International Captain
I'm pretty sure everyone here is aware of what the ICC Ratings are. If not, you can go ahead and read about it in the following link: http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/about.php
Anyway the thing about these rankings are that they offer a pretty decent form guide for batsmen and bowlers based off of their recent match performances from their criteria ( runs, wickets, match environment) . Given that these criteria can be objectively applied, to formulate rating data for cricketers throughout history, one would think they could be used to offer insight into some all time debates, and indeed they do offer their 2p to the debate by offering best ever ratings achieved by players throughout test history: http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/alltime/test/batting/
The problem here however should be obvious. These "best ever ratings" give an idea of the greatest form peaks achieved by Test cricketers. Given that all time great cricketers are also judged by criteria of consistency ( the most common criteria historically, simple average, takes no special account of peaks and valleys of players careers ), one of course wonders which of the great players of old maintained the highest standards throughout their careers.
And the ICC Rating can do that, if you simply take the average of all of the player's ratings from after every match of their career. In addition, this method has an unintended benefit of giving a longevity bonus as well, because the more matches played while maintaining a high rating, the more it offsets the penalty for the first handful of innings played.
So I spent way too much time during a very long and boring 2 days road trip plugging in every post match rating value for great players and determining these players' rating averages for the top players from CW's all time Test cricketers lists. (As a sidenote, if anyone with knowledge of data scraping websites wants to give me some pointers for automating this process for future players, please start a forum Conversation with me, as I'd love to know!) For these tables, I took the top 30 batsmen, top 22 pace bowlers, top 10 (with wildcards) spinners, and top 7 all-rounders from CW's most recent threads on the subject, compiled by Line and Length, and linked here:
So without further adieu, here are the numbers I got, with rankings by ICC rating average included on the left, CW ranking on the right, and the difference between the 2 also included. In addition, if there was a significant drop off in rating average of some players from those above them, I have noted that as well, as to me this would indicate there are in all likelihood great players whose values were not calculated that would fill the gap. Finally, active players are italicized for reference:
Batsmen:
Pace Bowlers:
Spin Bowlers:
All-Rounders:
And for fun, below is an All-time and Professional era (debut 1970 or later) XI I made using these numbers, and not including active players as their rating average could go either up or down depending on future performance. Let the jolly argumentation and discussion commence!
All-Time XI
Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Herbert Sutcliffe / Viv Richards
Don Bradman
Brian Lara
Garry Sobers
Kumar Sangakkara +
Shaun Pollock
Curtly Ambrose
Muttiah Muralitharan / Dale Steyn
Glenn Mcgrath
Professional Era XI
Sunil Gavaskar
Matthew Hayden
Viv Richards
Brian Lara
Javed Miandad
Kumar Sangakkara +
Ian Botham / Jacques Kallis
Shaun Pollock
Curtly Ambrose
Muttiah Muralitharan / Dale Steyn
Glenn Mcgrath
Anyway the thing about these rankings are that they offer a pretty decent form guide for batsmen and bowlers based off of their recent match performances from their criteria ( runs, wickets, match environment) . Given that these criteria can be objectively applied, to formulate rating data for cricketers throughout history, one would think they could be used to offer insight into some all time debates, and indeed they do offer their 2p to the debate by offering best ever ratings achieved by players throughout test history: http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/alltime/test/batting/
The problem here however should be obvious. These "best ever ratings" give an idea of the greatest form peaks achieved by Test cricketers. Given that all time great cricketers are also judged by criteria of consistency ( the most common criteria historically, simple average, takes no special account of peaks and valleys of players careers ), one of course wonders which of the great players of old maintained the highest standards throughout their careers.
And the ICC Rating can do that, if you simply take the average of all of the player's ratings from after every match of their career. In addition, this method has an unintended benefit of giving a longevity bonus as well, because the more matches played while maintaining a high rating, the more it offsets the penalty for the first handful of innings played.
So I spent way too much time during a very long and boring 2 days road trip plugging in every post match rating value for great players and determining these players' rating averages for the top players from CW's all time Test cricketers lists. (As a sidenote, if anyone with knowledge of data scraping websites wants to give me some pointers for automating this process for future players, please start a forum Conversation with me, as I'd love to know!) For these tables, I took the top 30 batsmen, top 22 pace bowlers, top 10 (with wildcards) spinners, and top 7 all-rounders from CW's most recent threads on the subject, compiled by Line and Length, and linked here:
CW's Top 50 Test Batsmen. 2022 Results
Firstly, my thanks @gftw for initiating the voting thread and thanks to all who contributed votes and comments. With voting and comments dwindling, it was felt we should stop at a final Top 50. I have added stats to the list as a matter of interest and for discussion points and here is the...
www.cricketweb.net
CW's Top 40 Pace Bowlers: 2022 Results
Once again, thanks to all involved in the voting and comments on this thread. Here is the final 40 together with relevant figures such as bowling average, strike rate, economy rate and wickets per match. I included the last of these as it is an indication of how important a component of a team's...
www.cricketweb.net
CW's Top 30 Spinners: 2022 Results
Once again, I have summarised the lists by adding relevant stats to promote discussion. Here are the results: The List Tests Wickets Average S.R. E.R. W.P.M. 1. Muttiah Muralitharan 133 800 22.73 55.05 2.48 6.02 2. Shane Warne 145 708 25.42 57.49 2.65 4.89 3. Bill O'Reilly 27 144 22.60...
www.cricketweb.net
CW's Top 25 All-Rounders: 2022 Results
As with the Batsmen thread, I thank @gftw for opening the original voting thread and all those who contributed their votes and opinions. The final list of 25, together with relevant stats, is provided below. I added a wickets per match column as this indicates how important a player was to the...
www.cricketweb.net
So without further adieu, here are the numbers I got, with rankings by ICC rating average included on the left, CW ranking on the right, and the difference between the 2 also included. In addition, if there was a significant drop off in rating average of some players from those above them, I have noted that as well, as to me this would indicate there are in all likelihood great players whose values were not calculated that would fill the gap. Finally, active players are italicized for reference:
Batsmen:
| ICC Rank | Name | Rat Avg | CW Rank | Dif |
1 | Don Bradman | 855.4 | 1 | - |
2 | Jack Hobbs | 799.0 | 2 | - |
3 | Steve Smith | 797.2 | 10 | +7 |
4 | Brian Lara | 783.5 | 6 | +2 |
5 | Len Hutton | 781.3 | 7 | +2 |
6 | Garry Sobers | 780.8 | 3 | -3 |
7 | Herbert Sutcliffe | 775.5 | 12 | +5 |
8 | Kumar Sangakkara | 763.3 | 16 | +8 |
9 | Viv Richards | 762.7 | 5 | -4 |
10 | Everton Weekes | 760.5 | 23 | +13 |
11 | Ken Barrington | 747.2 | 20 | +9 |
12 | Wally Hammond | 745.4 | 8 | -4 |
13 | Javed Miandad | 743.1 | 21 | +8 |
14 | Rahul Dravid | 741.8 | 22 | +8 |
15 | Ricky Ponting | 736.9 | 14 | -1 |
16 | Sunil Gavaskar | 736.5 | 9 | -7 |
17 | Allan Border | 736.0 | 17 | - |
18 | Jacques Kallis | 734.6 | 18 | - |
19 | Sachin Tendulkar | 731.9 | 4 | -15 |
20 | Greg Chappell | 712.9 | 13 | -7 |
21 | Denis Compton | 712.6 | 24 | +3 |
22 | George Headley | 711.8 | 11 | -11 |
23 | Younis Khan | 710.1 | 25 | +2 |
24 | AB de Villiers | 700.2 | 28 | +4 |
25 | Dudley Nourse | 695.7 | 27 | +2 |
| Drop | ||||
| Steve Waugh | 664.6 | 19 | Drop | |
| Geoffrey Boycott | 641.0 | 29 | Drop | |
| Andy Flower | 637.9 | 30 | Drop | |
| Clyde Walcott | 630.2 | 26 | Drop | |
| Graeme Pollock | 589.1 | 15 | Drop |
Pace Bowlers:
| ICC Rank | Name | Rat Avg | CW Rank | Dif |
1 | Glenn Mcgrath | 790.9 | 2 | +1 |
2 | Curtly Ambrose | 777.2 | 4 | +2 |
3 | Dale Steyn | 775.3 | 5 | +2 |
4 | Shaun Pollock | 775.3 | 16 | +12 |
5 | Allan Donald | 771.1 | 10 | +5 |
6 | Joel Garner | 768.7 | 11 | +5 |
7 | Malcolm Marshall | 740.9 | 1 | -6 |
8 | Ray Lindwall | 740.0 | 12 | +4 |
9 | Dennis Lillee | 737.1 | 7 | -2 |
10 | Fred Trueman | 734.4 | 8 | -2 |
11 | Pat Cummins | 733.9 | 20 | +9 |
12 | Richard Hadlee | 730.9 | 3 | -9 |
13 | James Anderson | 717.3 | 19 | +6 |
14 | Imran Khan | 710.1 | 6 | -8 |
15 | Waqar Younis | 709.3 | 14 | -1 |
16 | Courtney Walsh | 697.8 | 17 | +1 |
17 | Wasim Akram | 694.3 | 9 | -8 |
18 | Andy Roberts | 684.8 | 18 | - |
19 | Keith Miller | 677.9 | 21 | +2 |
20 | Michael Holding | 673.8 | 13 | -7 |
| Drop | ||||
| Alan Davidson | 622.8 | 15 | Drop | |
| Brian Statham | 620.3 | 22 | Drop |
Spin Bowlers:
| ICC Rank | Name | Rat Avg | CW Rank | Dif |
1 | Muttiah Muralitharan | 770.1 | 1 | - |
2 | Shane Warne | 726.8 | 2 | - |
3 | Sydney Barnes | 715.1 | Add | Add |
4 | Anil Kumble | 714.2 | 8 | +4 |
5 | Bill O'Reilly | 712.0 | 3 | -2 |
6 | Clarrie Grimmett | 711.3 | 5 | -1 |
| Drop | ||||
| Hugh Tayfield | 659.8 | 7 | Drop | |
| Hedley Verity | 653.0 | 6 | Drop | |
| George Lohmann | 643.7 | Add | Drop | |
| Jim Laker | 633.7 | 4 | Drop |
All-Rounders:
| ICC Rank | Name | Rat Avg | CW Rank |
1 | Ian Botham | 414.6 | 5 |
2 | Jacques Kallis | 405.7 | 3 |
3 | Garry Sobers | 399.5 | 1 |
4 | Keith Miller | 391.1 | 4 |
| Imran Khan | 345.9 | 2 | |
| Kapil Dev | 317.2 | 7 | |
| Shakib Al Hasan | 309.3 | 6 |
And for fun, below is an All-time and Professional era (debut 1970 or later) XI I made using these numbers, and not including active players as their rating average could go either up or down depending on future performance. Let the jolly argumentation and discussion commence!
All-Time XI
Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Herbert Sutcliffe / Viv Richards
Don Bradman
Brian Lara
Garry Sobers
Kumar Sangakkara +
Shaun Pollock
Curtly Ambrose
Muttiah Muralitharan / Dale Steyn
Glenn Mcgrath
Professional Era XI
Sunil Gavaskar
Matthew Hayden
Viv Richards
Brian Lara
Javed Miandad
Kumar Sangakkara +
Ian Botham / Jacques Kallis
Shaun Pollock
Curtly Ambrose
Muttiah Muralitharan / Dale Steyn
Glenn Mcgrath
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