*Official* 2022 New Zealand Tour of England, Ireland, Scotland & Netherlands

[trundler]

i don't really mind people thinking crowe was better or closer, im rolling my eyes at trundler's desperation to look edgy and probable salt.

Cope

 

[Bahnz]

idk man. cherry picking stats is a bit of a fools errand but if you look at the more traditionally strong sides we've played you can see Crowe is head and shoulders above the rest when playing away from home.

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Crowes drops 2 points if we include the WIndies who were worlds best at the time, whilst everyone elses averages go up because they've feasted on the more recent weakIndies

When comparing Taylor and Williamson most people say Taylor feasted too much on weak sides at home yet his away average vs top quality teams is a bit below Kane's.

This analysis is a bit problematic, as Australia were arguably the worst of the regular test nations (save Sri Lanka) during Crowe's pomp in the mid-80's. They'd improved a lot by the later phases of Crowe's career, but he only played one test in Australia after 1990 iirc, and that in a high-scoring draw.

If you're looking at players vs the top 4 sides of their era's (in terms of difficulty to tour), it would probably be:
Crowe: WI, Pak, Eng, Ind
KW: Ind, Aus, SA, Eng (could arguably sub in Pakistan here, as they had a very strong record in the UAE until misbah and younis' retirement)

In my mind Crowe would probably win out in this analysis, but it'd be interesting to see.

 

[trundler]

This analysis is a bit problematic, as Australia were arguably the worst of the regular test nations (save Sri Lanka) during Crowe's pomp in the mid-80's. They'd improved a lot by the later phases of Crowe's career, but he only played one test in Australia after 1990 iirc, and that in a high-scoring draw.

If you're looking at players vs the top 4 sides of their era's (in terms of difficulty to tour), it would probably be:
Crowe: WI, Pak, Eng, Ind
KW: Ind, Aus, SA, Eng

In my mind Crowe would probably win out in this analysis, but it'd be interesting to see.

Wasn't Australia's batting the bigger problem? They still had Hughes, McDermott (green), Lawson and Reid when fit. Not exciting and a lull between Lillee and McGrath but still decent. I don't think England were much better but I could be wrong.

 

[NZTailender]

This analysis is a bit problematic, as Australia were arguably the worst of the regular test nations (save Sri Lanka) during Crowe's pomp in the mid-80's. They'd improved a lot by the later phases of Crowe's career, but he only played one test in Australia after 1990 iirc, and that in a high-scoring draw.

If you're looking at players vs the top 4 sides of their era's (in terms of difficulty to tour), it would probably be:
Crowe: WI, Pak, Eng, Ind
KW: Ind, Aus, SA, Eng (could arguably sub in Pakistan here, as they had a very strong record in the UAE until misbah and younis' retirement)

In my mind Crowe would probably win out in this analysis, but it'd be interesting to see.

Crowe's average deviates slightly from his career average (1 run) while Kane's drops 12 runs

If we do away only Crowe's drops more significantly but so does Kane's

 

[Bahnz]

Wasn't Australia's batting the bigger problem? They still had Hughes, McDermott (green), Lawson and Reid when fit. Not exciting and a lull between Lillee and McGrath but still decent. I don't think England were much better but I could be wrong.

Theoretically they did, but injuries and other issues meant that there were a lot randoms in those Aus XI's (e.g. Dave Gilbert, Mike Whitney etc). Very rarely did Australia manage to get a top-class attack on the field at the same time (and when they did the tended to blow NZ away, a la the first test in 1987).

 

[ashley bach]

LOL it was stupid of me to say easily because no doubt that starts old debates that we've all heard before.
Having said that, I was fortunate enough at 9 years of age to have lessons from the great Hogan himself, at Aucklands Cornwall cricket club.
He soon after went on to play for NZ, and I closely followed just about every ball of his career.
Much as I loved him(and miss him) I have no doubts that KW is the better player.
With Hogan having had so much to do with Kanes growth as a player, he'll no doubt be looking down proudly from the heavens.

 

[Bahnz]

Crowe's average deviates slightly from his career average (1 run) while Kane's drops 12 runs

If we do away only Crowe's drops more significantly but so does Kane's

Yeah, this makes a pretty emphatic argument for Crowe being the superior player imo.

Having said that, trundler's grumbling about the 2018 series is absurd. That series was relatively low scoring, particularly the matches played at Abu Dhabi, and Kane's batting there was superb. Looked leagues above any other batsman on either side.

 

[straw man]

I remember looking at KW's away record a while ago, I think pre-WTC-final, and it's very clear he was good away for many years before a huge dropoff in form away from home.

Debut (2010) - late 2016: 2860 runs at 46.88, 10 hundreds. Fantastic record against many different teams, great average.

*** New Zealand doesn't play an overseas test for 2 years ***

UAE series late 2018: 386 runs at 77.2

August 2019 - now: 255 runs at 18.21, 0 hundreds.

It's extremely pronounced - he was great away from home for a long time, then NZ had a huge break from overseas test cricket. He's had one good overseas series since returning (the first one), and has been terrible away since mid-2019 (though note this is still only 8 test matches). His only actual highlight in that time was the WTC final where he scored 49 and 52* in a low-scoring match.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I remember looking at KW's away record a while ago, I think pre-WTC-final, and it's very clear he was good away for many years before a huge dropoff in form away from home.

Debut (2010) - late 2016: 2860 runs at 46.88, 10 hundreds. Fantastic record against many different teams, great average.

*** New Zealand doesn't play an overseas test for 2 years ***

UAE series late 2018: 386 runs at 77.2

August 2019 - now: 255 runs at 18.21, 0 hundreds.

It's extremely pronounced - he was great away from home for a long time, then NZ had a huge break from overseas test cricket. He's had one good overseas series since returning (the first one), and has been terrible away since mid-2019 (though note this is still only 8 test matches). His only actual highlight in that time was the WTC final where he scored 49 and 52* in a low-scoring match.

Ironically those matches in recent years when he did well "away" are all classified as "neutral" (Pakistan in the UAE and the WTC final).

 

[Skyliner]

The clique of about 4 guys on here who have been posting every hour for the last decade have seriously lost perspective on the NZ cricket team, and probably it's from going over the same stuff with a fine tooth comb day in and day out for year after year. That would undoubtedly have a debilatating effect on critical thinking and deductive reasoning. Out in the real world, the perception is now that the team are more concerned with IPL contracts and worrying about the pitch than about actually knuckling down and playing good, hard cricket. And who is to say that the knowledgable NZ cricketing public is wrong?

It is now apparent that the increasingly soft head coach and selection group are behaving like headless chooks. Their bizarre treatment of people like Ajaz Patel and Matt Henry is now totally unfathomable. They profess to take a 'horses for courses' approach, but when the course suits the horse we find that the horse has been scratched from the race. The abiding sense is that we are back with a group that suffers from muddled thinking and are overly influenced by a clique of older players that are once again having an inordinate influence that goes well beyond what it should.

The disgusting loss to Bangladesh at home and consequent pathetic excuse making and whingeing about the pitch was really sickening to see. Devon Conway is now even starting to let his standards slip in this light-weight environment. It was notable he didn't push on some ocassions in the home summer, when he had the opportunity to nail really big scores. He is starting to get out in lazy ways, and you start to wonder if the lackadaisical and mentally soft habits of some of the other players are starting to infect his game as well.

The team desperately needs to find some new leaders, and get away from the soft spoken and mild mannered approach which sounds like it doesn't give a fig about losing. One bloke who is in the current leadership mix sounds like he has had a tracheotomy as he grunts out every strained word through gritted teeth. Lets find inspiring and articulate leaders who look like they give a damn about on-field results.

 

[straw man]

Ironically those matches in recent years when he did well "away" are all classified as "neutral" (Pakistan in the UAE and the WTC final).

That's true - if we want to do some selective Stats Magic can separate it into the following (for the post 2-year-gap years):
Neutral: 487 runs at 81.16 (4 tests)
Away: 154 runs at 11.84 (7 tests)

Looking forward to Kane returning to form next test

 

[Bahnz]

Yeah, I was thinking that too. Especially when his career shifted gears in late 2013, Kane piled up the runs overseas for the next 3 or 4 years, helped no doubt by the frequency of overseas tests he'd played during his developmental phase from 2011-2013 (16 away tests in 2 years!). But since the 2019 WC it's been very hard going for him. A combination of injury and an increasingly specialised technique for home conditions perhaps.

 

[NZTailender]

I remember looking at KW's away record a while ago, I think pre-WTC-final, and it's very clear he was good away for many years before a huge dropoff in form away from home.

Debut (2010) - late 2016: 2860 runs at 46.88, 10 hundreds. Fantastic record against many different teams, great average.

*** New Zealand doesn't play an overseas test for 2 years ***

UAE series late 2018: 386 runs at 77.2

August 2019 - now: 255 runs at 18.21, 0 hundreds.

It's extremely pronounced - he was great away from home for a long time, then NZ had a huge break from overseas test cricket. He's had one good overseas series since returning (the first one), and has been terrible away since mid-2019 (though note this is still only 8 test matches). His only actual highlight in that time was the WTC final where he scored 49 and 52* in a low-scoring match.

Can we blame the openers?

2018 to now openers and Kane at 3
debut to 2018 openers and Kane at 3

 

[straw man]

Can we blame the openers?

2018 to now openers and Kane at 3
debut to 2018 openers and Kane at 3

Maybe, though I'd lean more towards blaming captaincy (took over March 2016) and probably IPL for some series.

 

[NZTailender]

Maybe, though I'd lean more towards blaming captaincy (took over March 2016) and probably IPL for some series.

I remember 'focus' being a word thrown about a lot in the early half of Kane's career. It seems like he has more on his mind and is more prone to mistakes which he wouldn't usually make.

Sometimes when you watch him bat you get the impression he isn't enjoying it anymore.

 

[straw man]

And let's not forget he's the only one of the Fab 4 still captaining his side. All the others get to focus on just batting, again.

 

[Flem274*]

If he is struggling to score runs at the end of the summer (against decent teams) I would consider captaincy change.

Until then we don't know if it's rust either. His world cup in 2019 was exceptional.

 

[NZTailender]

And let's not forget he's the only one of the Fab 4 still captaining his side. All the others get to focus on just batting, again.

tbf apart from Root the averages of the other 3 all went up when captain, though their away average lowered when compared to their home average as captain/in general

Player as Captain	Home	Away	Neutral	Captain (Overall)	Career (Overall)
Smith	85.82	50.76	N/A	69.59	59.77
Kohli	67.60	47.66	28.50	54.80	49.95
Williamson	73.10	30.71	81.16	58.07	52.81
Root	46.30	46.56	N/A	46.44	49.57

Funnily enough Root is/was the most consistent overall I guess.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

The clique of about 4 guys on here who have been posting every hour for the last decade have seriously lost perspective on the NZ cricket team, and probably it's from going over the same stuff with a fine tooth comb day in and day out for year after year. That would undoubtedly have a debilatating effect on critical thinking and deductive reasoning. Out in the real world, the perception is now that the team are more concerned with IPL contracts and worrying about the pitch than about actually knuckling down and playing good, hard cricket. And who is to say that the knowledgable NZ cricketing public is wrong?

It is now apparent that the increasingly soft head coach and selection group are behaving like headless chooks. Their bizarre treatment of people like Ajaz Patel and Matt Henry is now totally unfathomable. They profess to take a 'horses for courses' approach, but when the course suits the horse we find that the horse has been scratched from the race. The abiding sense is that we are back with a group that suffers from muddled thinking and are overly influenced by a clique of older players that are once again having an inordinate influence that goes well beyond what it should.

The disgusting loss to Bangladesh at home and consequent pathetic excuse making and whingeing about the pitch was really sickening to see. Devon Conway is now even starting to let his standards slip in this light-weight environment. It was notable he didn't push on some ocassions in the home summer, when he had the opportunity to nail really big scores. He is starting to get out in lazy ways, and you start to wonder if the lackadaisical and mentally soft habits of some of the other players are starting to infect his game as well.

The team desperately needs to find some new leaders, and get away from the soft spoken and mild mannered approach which sounds like it doesn't give a fig about losing. One bloke who is in the current leadership mix sounds like he has had a tracheotomy as he grunts out every strained word through gritted teeth. Lets find inspiring and articulate leaders who look like they give a damn about on-field results.

wow who gives a **** you loser

 

[Moss]

As noted previously, NZ would've been finished by the end of day 1 if Colin hadn't managed to somewhat rescue the first innings and dismiss England's best player. His presence is vital to balancing the side and he absolutely is a huge loss. In particular the absence of his tidy medium pacers make it much less likely that the selectors will gamble on a spinner or a fast bowler.

Yup, I think he’ll be gutted because these are the conditions where he really becomes a factor as an allrounder away from home. I doubt he’ll make the starting XI in Pakistan (assuming that tour goes ahead) and by the time the home season comes along who knows. Possible we may have seen the last of him in whites, though we’ve speculated about this many times in the last 2 years.