Jacques Kallis vs Steve Waugh

[subshakerz]

Regarding their overall records, there is little to choose between them actually.

Kallis has more runs and centuries but also batted up the order more regularly.

Kallis has a moderate record in England and Sri Lanka, Waugh has a moderate record in NZ and a poor one in Sri Lanka.

Kallis scored more heavily in the subcontinent while Waugh dominates in England and West Indies. They both did well in SA and Australia.

Going just by record, I don't see any big advantage for Kallis over Waugh to justify a better judgment. In fact, those posters who rate Kallis over Waugh based on record, I wonder why you wouldn't rate Kallis over Ponting based on the same?

 

[Xix2565]

First you criticize that I only use one criteria and then you blast them all. The strange thing is that it is the Kallis supporters who havent really given a cohesive argument as to why he is better than Waugh outside of just a raw reading of their stats.

Still waiting for an actual post by the way. Since you've yet to respond, can I assume you have no meaningful way to make a point beyond what you remember?

 

[Tec15]

In fact, those posters who rate Kallis over Waugh based on record, I wonder why you wouldn't rate Kallis over Ponting based on the same?

Who says I don't? Kallis>Ponting.
Funniest thing ever is a guy who somehow thinks Waugh was better than Kallis, (Because, different era, he faced much better bowlers don't you know ) but also that Dravid (Who played in the same era as Kallis remember, but with a worse record across the board) is then better than Waugh! Bhwa !? Consistent arguments and standards, What that?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Waugh v Kallis might be debatable, but Kallis is undoubtedly better than Dravid

 

[ankitj]

In for Kallis > Ponting

 

[h_hurricane]

There is enough merit in the argument that Kallis > Dravid > Waugh

 

[ankitj]

DoG's all time test batsmen ratings had:

Kallis #12
Ponting #14
Dravid #18
Waugh #19
Border #24

 

[Nikhil99.99]

DoG's all time test batsmen ratings had:

Kallis #12
Ponting #14
Dravid #18
Waugh #19
Border #24

Would be interesting to see where the fab 4 are in present ranking.

 

[subshakerz]

Who says I don't? Kallis>Ponting.
Funniest thing ever is a guy who somehow thinks Waugh was better than Kallis, (Because, different era, he faced much better bowlers don't you know ) but also that Dravid (Who played in the same era as Kallis remember, but with a worse record across the board) is then better than Waugh! Bhwa !? Consistent arguments and standards, What that?

No, Waugh > Dravid > Kallis

 

[TheJediBrah]

In for Kallis > Ponting

Nah can't justify this (purely on batting)

This has been discussed to death on here but the difference in strike rate is massive, and the effect that has on opposition bowling in the context of Test matches.

Argument could be made that the value of Kallis as a batsman would increase the weaker the team he's playing in though

 

[subshakerz]

Waugh v Kallis might be debatable, but Kallis is undoubtedly better than Dravid

Undoubtedly? Based on what? I think Dravid vs. Kallis is close, but what gives Kallis such an advantage?

 

[subshakerz]

In for Kallis > Ponting

Is this serious? I can understand why posters would underrate Waugh if they didnt encounter him much, but Ponting was pretty clearly rated the top batsman of the 2000s.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Undoubtedly? Based on what? I think Dravid vs. Kallis is close, but what gives Kallis such an advantage?

Tougher home batting conditions for one

Is this serious? I can understand why posters would underrate Waugh if they didnt encounter him much, but Ponting was pretty clearly rated the top batsman of the 2000s.

It's going to be one of those opinions that gets more common the longer we get from the time period, like thinking Dennis Lillee is overrated. Basically, people forget things.

 

[ankitj]

Is this serious? I can understand why posters would underrate Waugh if they didnt encounter him much, but Ponting was pretty clearly rated the top batsman of the 2000s.

Tougher home batting conditions for one. (thanks @TheJediBrah)

Ponting tailed off badly late in his career, Kallis didn't. (Quality) Longevity matters to me.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Ponting tailed off badly late in his career, Kallis didn't. (Quality) Longevity matters to me.

But Ponting was better when he was better. "Tailing off" isn't really an argument against Ponting when they end up similar even if you include the "tailing off"

 

[ankitj]

But Ponting was better when he was better. "Tailing off" isn't really an argument against Ponting when they end up similar even if you include the "tailing off"

They did not end up similar. Kallis' average is higher by a non-insignificant amount even though they played almost exact same number of years over almost exact same period. Kallis finished with more hundreds too in fewer innings. It's all down to the fact that Kallis' form did not dip with age to the same extent.

 

[ankitj]

It's cool if you think Ponting was better batsman than Kallis. Please don't act shocked if someone thinks otherwise.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It's cool if you think Ponting was better batsman than Kallis. Please don't act shocked if someone thinks otherwise.

I wouldn't be shocked, why would you even say that? Are you confusing me with subshakerz? People think much crazier things than that. I would guess that most people who think that either didn't watch much of either of them play, or have forgotten. They were completely different players. Ponting dominated attacks and scored his runs far quicker, helped more with winning Test matches than Kallis' style. There's a reason Ponting was rated so far ahead of nearly everyone in that period.

I'm not going to go and make fun of people for having the other opinion though. It's not like it's a terrible opinion.

 

[subshakerz]

Tougher home batting conditions for one

Yeah but going just by that criteria, Kallis should be ahead of every modern day batsmen. It also ignores that he played plenty of cricket in England and didn't succeed there.

It's going to be one of those opinions that gets more common the longer we get from the time period, like thinking Dennis Lillee is overrated. Basically, people forget things.

Lillee will still end up in the top ten pacers ever though, even on this forum.

 

[subshakerz]

Tougher home batting conditions for one. (thanks @TheJediBrah)

Ponting tailed off badly late in his career, Kallis didn't. (Quality) Longevity matters to me.

On the flipside, Ponting had a somewhat better start to his career than Kallis.

Would you rate Kallis ahead of Lara based on career consistency?