subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, lets ignore impact innings, the way the batsman plays, peer rating, etc. Let's pretend Kallis didn't cash in on minnows and weak attacks either.
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Jacques Kallis vs Steve Waugh
- Thread starter PlayerComparisons
- Start date
Red_Ink_Squid
Global Moderator
When @Prince EWS did his standardised average thingy his analysis found that Waugh's average needed standardising downwards whereas Kallis' got a slight bump, suggesting that of the two, on average, Kallis faced the tougher attacks/conditions.
Admittedly his ratings also reckoned that Peter Siddle was a better bowler than Dennis Lillee. But, anyway, don't forget that Waugh was a coward who batted at 5 and didn't protect the tail.
trundler
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If we take out minnows, the overall quality of attacks Kallis faced will only go up. Steve Waugh faced the worst English attacks in living memory more often than any other anyway.
OverratedSanity
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There is basically no difference in the way they play, it was a dumb thing to bring up in the first place. If anything Waugh faced more credible accusations of selfishness than Kallis ever did. Peer rating is often nonsense, and Kallis is rated quite highly anyway among his contemporaries.
There's only one thing here that has a little bit of merit: Impact innings- I will say that imo Kallis probably played fewer innings I'd consider ATG level than any great player I saw so this is a fair thing to bring up. I don't think it's entirely baseless either because DoG's thread of great innings didn't have a single one of his knocks. Then again it had 0 steve waugh innings too. He played several more of what I'd call "great" innings imo but a lot of this could also be because :
(i) he played for Australia so a lot of his better innings contributed to the greater ongoing narrative of the Australian team's rise to dominance. For instance, his double ton vs WI while obviously a great knock would receive way less fanfare if it didn't have the story of Australia "dethroning" West Indies. This frankly has less to do with the innings itself and more with the circumstances of the two teams. I'm quite confident Kallis could've played an innings like that if he batted 5 for Australia that day but you're free to disagree. This wasn't a unique display of genius like Lara's 153, it was "merely" an ATG knock against a great attack that I think quite a few other great players could have, and have played.
(ii) He battedat 5 where his best hundreds were often those that rescued the team from a precarious position. Top order batsmen are never going to get these opportunities. They have the frankly tougher job of averting the crisis from happening in the first place. Unless you're playing in a terrible lineup like Lara, playing those kind of knocks is obviously going to be rarer. And there are few better 'crisis averters' than Kallis.
akilana
International 12th Man
it's to you too when it suits your argument. You used the 'average' thing in discussions of Steyn and Ambrose.
StephenZA
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
But that is because of all the bowling he did in SA which does not count because of easy you get wickets...
trundler
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Kallis routinely walked in with scores of 2 down for **** all and did better in those circumstances than Tendulkar or any other #4. Make of that what you will. I don't know how to dig up the exact stat so if anyone knows what I'm referring to, please help.
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Coronis
International Coach
Yeah true I wouldn’t consider any of Kallis’ outstanding batting performances impact innings. Not his first century, against McGrath and Warne on Boxing Day 97 to save the test. Not his 110 and 88 in the Cape Town test in 99 against Courtney Walsh. Not his 87 in the second innings at Kandy in 03 against Murali.
OverratedSanity
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Kallisball game vs India was probably his best one
trundler
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akilana
International 12th Man
Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
I’m going for Kallis after carefully calculating a superior First Chance Average.
Dendarii
International Debutant
I'm not absolutely certain of this, but I have a memory of a match against a Pakistan team missing some of their big guns, with the result that Kallis had scored more runs, taken more wickets, and held more catches than the entire opposition combined.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
They did, but it also referring to test cricket.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
I would say more like 95-97, but yes.
is anyone actually saying that though? he was a great player by any measure, is it such a stretch to think that waugh was the greater batsman?
If the supporting argument is based mainly on intangibles then sure.