Jacques Kallis vs Steve Waugh

[TheJediBrah]

Kallis used to consistently clock 90+ mph

This is definitely not true

that's like 145kph. He'd struggle to hit that on the best day of his life let alone consistently

 

[subshakerz]

A bit disappointed by this poll result. Maybe it is the recency bias in favor of Kallis. Kallis has a good record but frankly in the 2000s he would struggle to make even the top 5 when it comes to bats of that era. He just lacked impact.

But I have noticed that most posters here don't rate Steve Waugh that highly as a bat for some odd reason, which is odd. He was limited in terms of shots but in terms of results is second to none.

It seems as time passes, 90s legends tend to get rated less.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I see that in the CW voting for batsmen (top 50) Kallis finished 18th and Waugh 19th.

 

[Migara]

Waugh faced Saqlain in 99 and 2003. So again you are wrong. And as for pace, it is not even close.

Saqlain was done by 2000-1 with his knees. So no, didn't play peak Saqlain enough.

 

[Migara]

No it doesn't. He simply didn't face Warne. As usual shifting goal posts when it doesn't suit your absurd arguments. You said he struggled vs Kumble, that was false. No one cares if Murali had a doosra or not, fact is Waugh faced him and had varying degrees of success/failures. And with all due respect, sometimes you need to do a little research before listing off bowlers people faced. For example for Kallis he faced Bond in all of one test.

Waugh faced better attacks and enough spin and did amazing.

Ps About Vetorri. He is yet another quality spinner who Waugh had success against. I don't consider him quality but I know you do....??

No he did not. That is the whole point of it. The spin Waugh faced not even comparable to quality in what Kallis faced. Murali, Warne, Kumble, Harbhajan, Ajmal, Swann and Herath. Other than for Ajmal / Swann, all 400+ wicket spinners, and few are easily in the top 10. Waugh never played a spinner who was in peak and will get in to top 10 other than Kumble.

 

[Migara]

This is definitely not true

that's like 145kph. He'd struggle to hit that on the best day of his life let alone consistently

1999 world cup he was easily quicker than Donald. Possibly the second fastest bowler in the competition. Clocked 92-93ish against us IIRC. Later he became a stock bowler until last few years.

 

[TheJediBrah]

1999 world cup he was easily quicker than Donald. Possibly the second fastest bowler in the competition. Clocked 92-93ish against us IIRC. Later he became a stock bowler until last few years.

Fair enough, before my time. I only really saw him bowl a bit after that and he never beat 135

 

[CricAddict]

I see that in the CW voting for batsmen (top 50) Kallis finished 18th and Waugh 19th.

Just about right.

 

[Slifer]

No he did not. That is the whole point of it. The spin Waugh faced not even comparable to quality in what Kallis faced. Murali, Warne, Kumble, Harbhajan, Ajmal, Swann and Herath. Other than for Ajmal / Swann, all 400+ wicket spinners, and few are easily in the top 10. Waugh never played a spinner who was in peak and will get in to top 10 other than Kumble.

Neither of these bowlers would be considered in the top 10 greatest spinners. Ajmal was a down right cheat, Swann and Herath are not top 10. Waugh faced Harbajan or did you forget the 2001 where Harbi took truckloads of wickets, yet Waugh did very well. He faced Kumble, Mushtaq, Murali and Vettori who you once proported would destroy 80s WI. So the fact remains, Waugh faced better quality pace, better bowling attacks overall than Kallis and comparable spin.

 

[subshakerz]

Saqlain was done by 2000-1 with his knees. So no, didn't play peak Saqlain enough.

In that case, both Steve Waugh and Kallis played 2 tests against Saqlain between 96 to 99, but Waugh actually played more against Saqlain overall. You can't spin your way out of this.

 

[subshakerz]

I see that in the CW voting for batsmen (top 50) Kallis finished 18th and Waugh 19th.

Kallis in the top 20 batsmen of all-time is ridiculous actually. He was underrated as an allrounder but overrated now as a batsman.

 

[Slifer]

1. much stronger attacks - Not really. Bowling averages of the teams Waugh played was 38.60, where as the attacks Kallis played averaged 37.84. There is absolutely no indications to say Waugh played better attacks.

2. Steve Waugh feasted on SL up to mid 1990s. So this argument is wrong.

3. Kallis did poorly in SL, ENG and BAN. Waugh did poorly in SL, NZ and against PAK. So both are even on that account.

4. Waugh played peak Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Hadlee, Donald, Pollock Ambrose, Walsh and perhaps Kumble and Marshall, and succeded against them. Kallis played peak McGrath, Walsh, Shoaib, Anderson, Bond, Asif, Warne, Murali, Kumble and Saqlain. I would say Kallis played a more rounded and a complete attacks than Waugh.

5. Even after being very much similar in what they played Waugh averages 51.1 and Kallis averages 55.4. That is significantly better.

Kallis for me all the way.

Kallis played Bond in one test. And name me an attack Kallis faced that was more rounded than what Waugh faced vs Pakistan in 1990: Imran, Waqar (pre injury), Wasim and Mustaq. Oh I forget, Imran wasn't at his absolute peak and since Kallis always played great bowlers at theirs this doesn't count.

 

[Slifer]

In that case, both Steve Waugh and Kallis played 2 tests against Saqlain between 96 to 99, but Waugh actually played more against Saqlain overall. You can't spin your way out of this.

Bro he'll find a way. Waugh also faced Herath but since Herath was a newcomer, that doesn't count either. Strange that he counts Shane Bond who played a solitary test vs Kallis. ?

 

[Kirkut]

Dravid is better than Kallis but not Waugh level. I tend not to rate accumulators as highly as batsmen who can counterattack.

Waugh simply delivered at so many key big match moments against quality opposition and in tough conditions. Dravids two fifties at Sabina Park were terrific but cant compare with Waugh's two tons on a damp wicket at Old Trafford in 1997 that turned that Ashes around. Or his 200 against Ambrose and Walsh that ended WI's reign. Or his 160 against Donald and Pollock in SA when he batted an entire day without losing his wicket. The guy simply picked the toughest challenges and delivered.

Waugh was along with Tendulkar the best batsman of the 90s. Dravid would be lucky to make the top three in the 2000s when batting was far easier.

Steve Waugh got 160 but Blewett also made 200 in that game, that is similar to the Kolkata test where Dravid got 180 along with Laxman's 281. Then we have that series in England in 2002 where pitches were hard to bat on throughout the series and Dravid piled on runs.

But nothing comes close to the awesomeness of his skill at 2011 Pataudi Trophy. Swann at his prime, Anderson at his prime, Broad was moving the ball like Asif at serious pace and Bresnan too was at his peak getting reverse swing at high speeds. That attack in that form would have challenged any batting line up from any era.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Kallis played Bond in one test. And name me an attack Kallis faced that was more rounded than what Waugh faced vs Pakistan in 1990: Imran, Waqar (pre injury), Wasim and Mustaq. Oh I forget, Imran wasn't at his absolute peak and since Kallis always played great bowlers at theirs this doesn't count.

Waugh played two series against these bowlers in 89/89 and 89/90. He averaged 18 and 11 in those six tests.

You cant even say Waugh wasnt at his absolute peak because it'd go against what you're arguing Migara was doing.

 

[Slifer]

Waugh played two series against these bowlers in 89/89 and 89/90. He averaged 18 and 11 in those six tests.

You cant even say Waugh wasnt at his absolute peak because it'd go against what you're arguing Migara was doing.

Waugh failed miserably I can admit that. My argument has been that Waugh generally faced much much better bowling. That's a fact. His peak was mid 90s I believe in which case, he would've faced and succeeded against Pakistan when they still had : Waqar, Wasim, Mushtaq and Saqlain (and Shoaib). Not all at the same time but in varying combinations: '94, '95, '99.

Waugh debuted in the midst of bowling excellence (generally) and peaked when it was still high quality. Kallis debuted when it was waning and peaked when it was low. Not his fault of course... Imho.

 

[TheJediBrah]

He faced Kumble, Murali, Mushtaq, Murali and Vettori

from both ends?

 

[Fuller Pilch]

from both ends?

Murali Karthik?!

 

[Slifer]

from both ends?

Typo. My bad.

 

[Slifer]

Murali Karthik?!

Fixed