Boxing thread

[hendrix]

What's harsh about that? In terms of skills every guy I named is superior to Canelo.

Canelo has a career which is cleverly manipulated into making some fans, especially casual boxing fans believe the hype...before this weekend there was talk on Sky, ESPN, DAZN, iFL etc that Canelo would legitimate challenge Usyk LOL The same Canelo who has been given about 5 gift decisions in his career, more than any top flight fighter I have seen in nearly 25 years of watching boxing.

Btw, Canelo didn't lose the Bivol fight based on size, there were no size issues what so ever. He was simply outboxed by the superior boxer, as was the case gaainst GGG, Lara and some may say Trout and Cotto. Heck Canel owas being soundly out boxed by fat Saunders until he quit.

If anyone is surprised Canelo was so easily out boxed, they haven't been watching his career.

Look I'm no Canelo fan but you're going way overboard here. Tyson Fury doesn't have Canelo's skills, nor has he achieved half of what Canelo has achieved. Also, Saunders did not win a single round against Canelo, unless you just listen to weird UK/Sky commentary. He was getting murdered from start to finish. The other guys - Usyk, Crawford, Inoue, Chocolatito etc - sure they're probably more skilled boxers, although it could be argued that only Usyk and Chocolatito have an actual resume comparable with Canelo (Crawford and Inoue should get there but they haven't done enough yet). Please note I already had Usyk number one on my P4P list above Canelo.

Maybe instead it's better to praise Bivol for the boxing masterclass rather than just **** on Canelo.

 

[hendrix]

Re: Canelo, I'm not entirely sold on the arguments about him being way above his natural weight. He's been 170lbs minimum on fight night for a decade now with the exception of the Mayweather fight (I figure he's probably in the 180s now but acknowledge that involves a little bit of bulking up). At bare minimum he's a big middleweight, and from about 2012 - 2017 he was obviously a massive weight cutter at 154/155 and generally beating smaller opponents. Being short poses its owns challenges but he's "naturally" (the concept of "natural weight" always strikes me as ephemeral anyway) stocky.

Agreed 168 is his best weight these days.

 

[jayjay]

Look I'm no Canelo fan but you're going way overboard here. Tyson Fury doesn't have Canelo's skills, nor has he achieved half of what Canelo has achieved. Also, Saunders did not win a single round against Canelo, unless you just listen to weird UK/Sky commentary. He was getting murdered from start to finish. The other guys - Usyk, Crawford, Inoue, Chocolatito etc - sure they're probably more skilled boxers, although it could be argued that only Usyk and Chocolatito have an actual resume comparable with Canelo (Crawford and Inoue should get there but they haven't done enough yet).

Maybe instead it's better to praise Bivol for the boxing masterclass rather than just **** on Canelo.

Tyson Fury can box and punch, Canelo can only punch.

Saunders clearly won rounds...how do you give Canelo rounds when he was at times not even throwing punches? You sound like Steve Weissfeild

I actually think Canelo has an exceptional resume, look at it: Mosley, Mayweather, Lara, Trout, GGGx2, Cotto, Kovalev...but that's only if you look at it. He robbed his way to at least 3 of those wins (obvs the May fight was a loss) and the Kovalev fight is one of the worst frauds in the history of boxing and Kov should have been fined his entire purse.

I'm not shtting on Canelo, he is a top 10 fighter but he is far from great and there are other fighters this generation who have a better argument for greatness. Add to that, as I keep repeating ,if anyone is shocked by Canelo being out boxed then they clearly haven't seen him fight enough.

 

[jayjay]

Also going to add, Bivol is a very good boxer and I think he has a great shot of unifying all the belts. HOwever he isn't the hardest hitting. How good is he? We'll see if he fights Beterbiev.

 

[hendrix]

Saunders clearly won rounds...how do you give Canelo rounds when he was at times not even throwing punches? You sound like Steve Weissfeild

I actually think Canelo has an exceptional resume, look at it: Mosley, Mayweather, Lara, Trout, GGGx2, Cotto, Kovalev...but that's only if you look at it. He robbed his way to at least 3 of those wins (obvs the May fight was a loss) and the Kovalev fight is one of the worst frauds in the history of boxing and Kov should have been fined his entire purse.

I'm not shtting on Canelo, he is a top 10 fighter but he is far from great and there are other fighters this generation who have a better argument for greatness. Add to that, as I keep repeating ,if anyone is shocked by Canelo being out boxed then they clearly haven't seen him fight enough.

You might have missed the part where I picked Bivol to win this fight, in this very thread.

I hate Canelo's diva tactics as much as anyone, particularly the ducking GGG until he was well past his prime then getting an outrageous decision then the Mexican meat saga. Still, he has legite good wins and he's actually undispiuted at 168. How many guys do you see get to undisputed these days? Hardly anyone.

Tyson Fury can box and punch, Canelo can only punch.

Sorry but that's just garbage. You don't get to undisputed without being able to box.

Tyson Fury has never been undisputed, and flatly refuses to fight anyone who can box with him. A win over Cotto is better than anything Fury has done in his entire career.

 

[hendrix]

Also going to add, Bivol is a very good boxer and I think he has a great shot of unifying all the belts. HOwever he isn't the hardest hitting. How good is he? We'll see if he fights Beterbiev.

Bivol has always been one of my favourite boxers.

Joe Smith Jr vs Beterbiev could be interesting. Beterbiev is not without flaws, and got dropped by Callum Johnson. He also could be ageing.

 

[jayjay]

Bivol has always been one of my favourite boxers.

Joe Smith Jr vs Beterbiev could be interesting. Beterbiev is not without flaws, and got dropped by Callum Johnson. He also could be ageing.

Beterbiev is very slow and the older he gets, the lower his punch output becomes. He does hit very hard though!

I think Bivol has a great shot at out boxing him.

I'm not really a fan of either but I did really enjoy Bivol post fight trolling Canelo and Hearn.

 

[thierry henry]

I'm sort of in the middle of you two re: Canelo I think. Initially I thought he was a novelty attraction but around the time of the Trout fight (which I thought he won clearly enough) I realised he was legit at least in a "one of the best guys at 154" sort of way.

Since then there has definitely been at least an element of smoke and mirrors though. I was actually impressed by his performances against GGG and Lara because he proved he could COMPETE against guys like that and therefore confirmed he was legit, but at the same time he failed to separate himself from the pack and indeed I'm of the opinion he quite clearly lost both GGG fights. I also don't see how you can have him shutting out Saunders unless you are one of "Canelo's judges" or just biased towards his style. Canelo seems to get away, more than most, with "winning" rounds via low output and loading up on occasional power shots that don't really land. This seems to be how people had him winning GGG 2 when to me GGG won clear as day.

Anyway, I digress. Canelo is legit in the sense that he was a prematurely hyped fighter who delivered on the promise to become an upper echelon fighter capable of competing with top opposition. Nevertheless, he's still a fraud in the sense that he never proved himself as the best or separated himself from the competition, yet gets treated like he did (in part through biased judging and commentary).

 

[hendrix]

I also don't see how you can have him shutting out Saunders unless you are one of "Canelo's judges" or just biased towards his style.

No I'm just biased against the fake-slick fighters and their fans that act like throwing out an ineffectual jab and running around the ring is "ring generalship". Saunders wasn't doing anything effective, it was not a competitive fight.

Other examples of this being Hughie Fury.

 

[thierry henry]

No I'm just biased against the fake-slick fighters and their fans that act like throwing out an ineffectual jab and running around the ring is "ring generalship". Saunders wasn't doing anything effective, it was not a competitive fight.

Other examples of this being Hughie Fury.

I mean, theoretically I agree, but if in any given round the fake-slick fighter isn't getting caught by anything much and is landing the odd shot here and there himself then it IS a close/competitive round. You can't "clearly" win a round without landing anything....Parker v H Fury being a great example of that.

But yeah, could argue the toss about boxing judging all day and not get anywhere innit.

 

[hendrix]

Anyway, I digress. Canelo is legit in the sense that he was a prematurely hyped fighter who delivered on the promise to become an upper echelon fighter capable of competing with top opposition. Nevertheless, he's still a fraud in the sense that he never proved himself as the best or separated himself from the competition, yet gets treated like he did (in part through biased judging and commentary).

Right. He ducked prime GGG then lost to old GGG. And he's used the weight divisions more as a way of picking and choosing fights rather than truly just going up to fight the best available, the way Lomachenko and Usyk and Inoue have done.

Still, I guess I'm reacting to the reaction because he is definitely a highly accomplished fighter and comparing him to Tyson Fury is laughable.

Also, as you rightly pointed out, to even compete with GGG - never to get dropped or seriously hurt even up against light-heavyweights - that's pretty impressive. You don't do that if you're not a very, very good boxer. Look what GGG did to Ryota Murata - this guy was an olympic gold medalist and a belt holder and gets destroyed by a 40 year old GGG, so for Canelo to hang with a late 30s GGG and be competitive is pretty good IMO.

And yeah, legite wins over Danny Jacobs, Lara, Cotto, BJS, Plant (I don't rate him but he was a beltholder), Callum Smith (I don't rate him either) etc...that still makes him an elite fighter.

 

[hendrix]

I mean, theoretically I agree, but if in any given round the fake-slick fighter isn't getting caught by anything much and is landing the odd shot here and there himself then it IS a close/competitive round. You can't "clearly" win a round without landing anything....Parker v H Fury being a great example of that.

But yeah, could argue the toss about boxing judging all day and not get anywhere innit.

BJS was taking monster shots to the body the whole fight. No, it wasn't high volume or anything, but Canelo was definitely doing the better work.

I actually thought Canelo would avoid BJS after watching the latter's work on Lemieux, I thought it might be a difficult style match up, but he destroyed him.

 

[social]

BJS is a good boxer but he hasn’t lived the life in years (if ever)

Canelo is elite and to claim otherwise is just being petty

However, he learned from the best in Mayweather and has used his status as the biggest money spinner in the sport to generate huge money from fights that weren’t the best

 

[jayjay]

I'm sort of in the middle of you two re: Canelo I think. Initially I thought he was a novelty attraction but around the time of the Trout fight (which I thought he won clearly enough) I realised he was legit at least in a "one of the best guys at 154" sort of way.

Since then there has definitely been at least an element of smoke and mirrors though. I was actually impressed by his performances against GGG and Lara because he proved he could COMPETE against guys like that and therefore confirmed he was legit, but at the same time he failed to separate himself from the pack and indeed I'm of the opinion he quite clearly lost both GGG fights. I also don't see how you can have him shutting out Saunders unless you are one of "Canelo's judges" or just biased towards his style. Canelo seems to get away, more than most, with "winning" rounds via low output and loading up on occasional power shots that don't really land. This seems to be how people had him winning GGG 2 when to me GGG won clear as day.

Anyway, I digress. Canelo is legit in the sense that he was a prematurely hyped fighter who delivered on the promise to become an upper echelon fighter capable of competing with top opposition. Nevertheless, he's still a fraud in the sense that he never proved himself as the best or separated himself from the competition, yet gets treated like he did (in part through biased judging and commentary).

It's just how I see it.

On this topic, how do you guys rank the best p4p fighters today?

I'd have something like:

1. Usyk
2. Crawford
3. Inoue
4. Fury
5. Gonzalez
6. Estrada
7. Canelo
8. Taylor
9. AJ
10. Spence

 

[hendrix]

It's just how I see it.

On this topic, how do you guys rank the best p4p fighters today?

I'd have something like:

1. Usyk
2. Crawford
3. Inoue
4. Fury
5. Gonzalez
6. Estrada
7. Canelo
8. Taylor
9. AJ
10. Spence

That looks pretty good. dunno about Fury at 4 though, and I think GGG still makes it, as does Lomachenko

I'd go something like
1. Usyk
- best cruiserweight of all time, undisputed there and then beats AJ at heavyweight.
2. Canelo
- undisputed at super MW, and one of the better resumes
3. Crawford
- undisputed at light welterweight, and a good win against Porter but hasn't proven much else yet at welterweight
4. Inoue
- the monster! gonna enjoy him vs Donaire again...needs an opponent
5. Gonzalez
- just frikken watch him fight. just watch.
6. Lomachenko
- absolute domination of excellent fighters all the through the divisions on the way to lightweight
7. Bivol
- some of his wins e.g. Joe Smith Jr, Umar Salamov, Jean Pascal - pretty high quality already before knocking off Canelo
8. Gennady Golovkin
- it is crazy how still, even at 40 years old, no one wants to fight him
9. Taylor
- undisputed at light welterweight, and arguably fought better guys than Crawford to get there
10. Briedis
- getting old I guess but has some excellent wins when Cruiserweight was super tough, and gave Usyk his toughest fight

 

[social]

Usyk is an amazing talent/technician plus he makes Fury look sane

Very bad dude

The very notion that Canelo should fight him was insane

 

[jayjay]

Canelo v Usyk would be state sanctioned murder haha

@hendrix most of the same names i so cant argue much. However Breidis is nowhere near a p4p top 10 brother, cmon now!

In terms of real world fights, lets get Roman v Estrada 3, lets get Crawford v Spence, lets get AJ/Usyk/Fury.

 

[jayjay]

I've been enjoying this sub forum so how about we list who we think were the best fighters, by year, from 2000 till 2021.

2000: Shane Mosley, iconic win over DLH
2001: Bernard Hopkins, nothing that year beats dismantling Tito
2002: Marco Antonio Barrera, what a year finally getting vengeance over his nemesis Morales (deserved to win the first fight too)
2003: Manny Pacquiao, TKO as massive underdog over, imo at the time, the best p4p fighter on the planet in Barrera
2004: Winky Wright, this was his year, sadly he never really capitilised on beating Mosley
2005: Jermain Taylor, I know both wins were very close but he became undisputed middleweight champion of the world
2006: Manny Pacquiao, 2 vengeful victories over Morales, both by stoppage. IMO this is the start of peak Pacman
2007: Floyd Mayweather, undisputed year for PBF
2008: Manny Pacquiao, back on top! Great wins
2009: Manny Pacquiao, as if annihilating Hatton wasnt enough, beating Cotto for the 147 belt was exceptional and imo even better
2010: Juan Manuel Marquez, two terrific wins over very good lightweights
2011: Nonito Donaire...lots of competition this year but Donaire burst into superstardom
2012: Juan Manuel Marquez, a dodgy win and a dodgy physique for anyone who followed the sport but still, that KO was something!
2013: Carl Froch, such an underrated fighter and such an underrated year for the guy who reclaimed top spot at 168
2014: Manny Pacquiao, should never have had an L against Bradley but reversed it against one of the best and then whalloped Algieri
2015: Mayweather for that one win alone
2016: Carl Frampton, another underrated fighter who happened to have a very short prime
2017: Rungvisai, beat Gonzalez back to back
2018: Rungvisai, completes the set by beating Estrada
2019: Inoue, iconic fight and win
2020: Teofimo Lopez, lop sided victory over the much touted Lomachenko
2021: Oleksandr Usyk, put pound for pound into...well, pound for pound

 

[Niall]

Ugh,

Was meant to bet Bakole today, he isn't exactly the next Mayweather , but he was 5.0 with bookies so superb value, from what I have seen of Yoka he looks very unimpressive and a can crusher, supposedly total domination.

 

[hendrix]

Yeah the word with Yoka is that he has a suspect chin. Alarm bells should have been ringing with how slowly they've moved him.

Think he was hurt early and had no answer. Decent long range boxer but once he got hit he lost his legs, lost any plan, and lost any real interest in trying to win the fight.