Curtly Ambrose vs Dale Steyn

[srbhkshk]

I don't think that's in dispute

Idk what else is in dispute given that's what I was saying.

 

[ataraxia]

Idk what else is in dispute given that's what I was saying.

Your statement was utterly ridiculous. In practice a bowler's body (and bowling action) is far more influential to their injury history and risk than the pitches they bowl on. It's not even close.

Unless you're comparing 2 fantasy bowlers where one bowls on concrete and the other bowls on marshmallow . . .

hehe tjb dum dum

 

[Coronis]

With all that being said, Holder and Roach are at least decent fast bowlers. They aren't world class or great simply because they completely suck outside the Caribbean. I honestly don't really know what that's down to. I know back in the day, West Indians used to play extensively in county cricket and some even played in South Africa etc. Maybe the WI could invest more in A team tours or try to have more players play first class outside the Caribbean.

The pitches in the wi aren't really the issue. The curators quite frankly, can prepare pitches according to the needs of the team.

Honestly all teams should be playing more first class if they want better test results but these days ODIs and and T20s are a much bigger draw for $$$, so sadly unlikely to happen.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Idk what else is in dispute given that's what I was saying.

Really? You said that the pitches a bowler bowls on is just as influential on injury as the bowlers own physical attributes, which is frankly ridiculous tbh. Especially in the context we're discussing here of injury prone bowlers who bowl on different pitches all over the world. My second response made it pretty clear that was what I was correcting:

In practice a bowler's body (and bowling action) is far more influential to their injury history and risk than the pitches they bowl on

Somehow this has gotten past both you and ataraxia I don't know how

 

[Starfighter]

Can we actually see some examples of this in action too? Offering up Shane Bond isn't the best example considering that all you had to do to get wickets on early 00s NZ pitches was get the ball vaguely near the other end of the pitch. His action, OTOH, was horrible spine-wise.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Can we actually see some examples of this in action too?

Only one I can think of might be Shoaib Akhtar, but only indirectly. You could say that his style of bowling/action, which was very injury prone, was a result of him having to bowl that way to take wickets on flat home pitches when he was younger? Still it's his actual bowling that was the issue but you could claim his home pitches might have had an influence

 

[subshakerz]

Only one I can think of might be Shoaib Akhtar, but only indirectly. You could say that his style of bowling/action, which was very injury prone, was a result of him having to bowl that way to take wickets on flat home pitches when he was younger? Still it's his actual bowling that was the issue but you could claim his home pitches might have had an influence

Shoaib's injuries were also partly self inflicted. He had a notoriously poor fitness ethic and refused all advice to reduce his unnecessarily long runup. Which is why I said, if he had a better mentor like Imran was for Wasim/Waqar he may have turned out differently. Wasim and Waqar as captain were notorious wary of Shoaib and tried to sideline him.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Can you give me an example of a bowler who would have been an ATG in other eras but not in the 2000s?

To be ATG level you have to be so good that you transcend the era.

Even now, despite all the poor batting techniques and good pitches, it only seems that Cummins, Bumrah and Rabada whom you could reasonably put ATG expectations on.

Jamieson??

 

[Migara]

Can you give me an example of a bowler who would have been an ATG in other eras but not in the 2000s?

Lillee?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Lillee?

Why wouldn't Lillee be an ATG in the 2000s?

 

[Xix2565]

Even now, despite all the poor batting techniques and good pitches,

I'll never get this point though, it's not like everyone had great techniques before and good pitches are only a recent novelty. You could always make the case for the greats of earlier bowling friendly eras being statpadders using these kinds of arguments and so are essentially overrated. It's never been only skill dependent.

 

[Migara]

Why wouldn't Lillee be an ATG in the 2000s?

Because he has to play a **** load of matches in subcontinent where he cannot keep off giving reasons like diarrhea and what not.

 

[Nikhil99.99]

Because he has to play a **** load of matches in subcontinent where he cannot keep off giving reasons like diarrhea and what not.

1 series that’s it..Even Marshall averaged 88 in 1979 series here in India.

 

[Line and Length]

Because he has to play a **** load of matches in subcontinent where he cannot keep off giving reasons like diarrhea and what not.

The "what not" you so flippantly dismiss was stress fractures of the lower vertebrae. As a result Lillee was forced out of cricket and
he spent six weeks during the winter of 1973 wearing a plaster cast that encased his entire torso.[

But you knew that, you just can't help yourself when it comes to 'knocking' an ATG of the game.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Because he has to play a **** load of matches in subcontinent where he cannot keep off giving reasons like diarrhea and what not.

and you wonder why no one takes you seriously

 

[Migara]

1 series that’s it..Even Marshall averaged 88 in 1979 series here in India.

Another apologetic reason. Averaged trash in Pakistan, no average in West indies, averaged 35 against a minnow Sri Lanka. Stress fracture was FFS in 1973. Any great bowler even in their last series should be able to demolish any minnow who has played less than 10 tests in total.

 

[h_hurricane]

Comparing 1979 Marshall with Lillee is bizarre tbh. Marshall was a spud in 1979, not doing well against anyone. Lillee, on the other hand has multiple examples (1973, 1980, 1983) spread across 10 years where he did nothing of note in unfamiliar conditions. It is a hole in his resume, even if people would like to pretend they aren't.

 

[Line and Length]

Another apologetic reason. Averaged trash in Pakistan, no average in West indies, averaged 35 against a minnow Sri Lanka. Stress fracture was FFS in 1973. Any great bowler even in their last series should be able to demolish any minnow who has played less than 10 tests in total.

Let's look at your trash more closely. His figures against Sri Lanka and West Indies are hardly representative of a career. One Test and 30 overs against Sri Lanka (1.06% of his total Test bowling career) and 1 Test in WI where he bowled 32 overs (1.13% of his total Test bowling career). His poor performance in Pakistan is undeniable but it was just 3 Tests. The man played 70 Tests (not to mention World Series) and there you are judging him on just 5 Tests. That's pathetic.
If you wish to be regarded as a rational member of CW you need to cease using miniscule samples of players' careers to denigrate their worth. Until then, as TJB says, no one will take you seriously.

 

[Aritro]

This should lighten the mood.




Anyway, carry on lads.

 

[Line and Length]

Comparing 1979 Marshall with Lillee is bizarre tbh. Marshall was a spud in 1979, not doing well against anyone. Lillee, on the other hand has multiple examples (1973, 1980, 1983) spread across 10 years where he did nothing of note in unfamiliar conditions. It is a hole in his resume, even if people would like to pretend they aren't.

Another example of ill-informed opinion. You quote 3 Years. Let's look at them rationally.
1973 - injured, Torso in full cast, Played 2 Tests
1980 - 46 wickets @ 22.57
1983 - in the twilight of his career where many players fade

As for the 'unfamiliar conditions' one can only play where Tests are scheduled and when one is fully fit. This myth that he avoided certain tours needs to be addressed. Name the tours he allegedly avoided and check his certified and well documented medical conditions at the time.